The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson is where real conversations meet real ministry. We tackle the hard questions facing today’s Black Church—from leadership and discipleship to cultural shifts and spiritual relevance. Hosted by Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr., this channel is a space for pastors, ministry leaders, and believers who are ready to reflect, wrestle, and reimagine what church can look like in today’s world.
New episodes drop every other Wednesday with honest insights, thoughtful dialogue, and wisdom from decades of ministry.
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The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
Ep 01: Is the Black Church Losing Its Fire?
Church attendance is shifting. Leadership styles are evolving. Worship doesn’t sound—or feel—the same. So here’s the question no one wants to ask out loud: Is the Black Church still on fire… or just burning out?
In this premiere episode, Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. pulls back the curtain on the current state of the Black Church—what’s changed, what’s fading, and what’s still worth fighting for. With over 60 years in ministry, he’s not here to point fingers… but to spark a conversation that’s long overdue.
This episode is for:
→ Pastors wondering if their church is still making impact
→ Leaders trying to reach a new generation without losing the old one
→ Anyone who believes the Black Church still matters—deeply
Real talk. Deep wisdom. A much-needed firestarter.
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Is the black church losing its fire, meaning its influence in these modern times? This is the Ministry Exchange by Ministry Forward Media, and I am your host, reverend Dr J Mendel Mapson Jr. We're living in times, I think you will agree, when the church is being challenged, because the church is changing, because the world is changing, and so this podcast is designed to equip pastors, church leaders and ministries with authentic conversations and practical insights for today's ever-changing ministry landscape. And I think that we can agree that the landscape is changing, and so this space is devoted to having honest discussions about leadership, faith and ministry today. And whether you are a seasoned pastor, as I am, whether you are a new pastor, whether you are a minister who has planted a church or somewhere in between, this space is for you or somewhere in between, this space is for you.
Dr. Mapson:I have had the privilege of pastoring God's people for over 55 years. I've been a minister for over 60 years, and I've watched, over the decades, the changes that have taken place, first of all, in the world, the changes that have taken place, first of all, in the world. The world is a very different place now than it was 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago or five years ago, which means the church is also a different church than it used to be. The black church of today is not the church of my childhood, and so this podcast is going to help us have this conversation and to just think about the challenges that we face. I think we all realize that the church does not belong to us. It is God's church. And we can say well, if it's God's church, then God is going to take care of it and we need not worry because it's all in his hands. And I think all of us agree and believe that it is God's church. It is in God's hands. But I think that does not relieve us of the responsibility, as God's people representing God in the world and ordained by God for this purpose, to look at the church and its challenges, to assist God in ensuring that the church lasts, but not only that it lasts, but that it remains to be effective, relevant and viable in today's world. And so the question again is is the black church losing its fire? Has it lost its fire, or is it the fact that the fire is burning in a different way? What is it that we need to be a part of that God is doing now. We know what God has done in the past and we look backward in order to look forward, but God is never behind us. God is always in front of us.
Dr. Mapson:Let's look, though, for a few moments, at the past influence of the church, because many of us can remember a time when the black church was the center of communal life and even for persons who did not regularly attend church or persons who did not believe in the ministry of the church, still looked to the church for moral leadership, for ethical leadership, and, whether it was politicians or other community leaders, the voice of the black minister was well respected. There was a time when ministers' sermons were printed in newspapers and when reporters went to ministers to discuss the sermons. There were times when sermon titles were posted in Saturday's papers, and, of course, those times are changing and we have to be able to look at forces beyond the church that have caused some of these changes, one of which is the term. Secularization is a society that lives without a reference to or need for, god, and so, in terms of religious language, in terms of religious values, a secular society says we no longer need God, says we no longer need God, and because of secularism, we have lost a sense of a religious worldview that places God at the center, and so when that happens in this society, quite naturally the influence of the church diminishes. And so now there is not just one main voice, moral voice that speaks for and articulates the needs of a community or people. There are many voices, there are political voices, there are social voices, there are media influences I think they're called people who compete with the voice of the minister and thereby, if we believe that the minister represents God, those voices are competing with God, and so God is being blocked out and removed in the public discourse and in our communities. And so I think we need to raise these questions and ask what has happened, questions and ask what has happened.
Dr. Mapson:And when we look at the decline in church membership, there's some very interesting statistics that I think we ought to be aware of. Many of us have heard of the Gallup poll, and, in terms of the Gallup poll, for the first time in Gallup's 80 years of monitoring trends in religion in America, church attendance has dropped below 50%, and so within the last three years, according to the Gallup polls, more than 50% of Americans report that they no longer belong to a church, no longer belong to a synagogue, no longer belong to a mosque, whereas as recently as 50, 40 years ago, over 70% of Americans claim church membership. And so, as Americans increasingly claim no religious preference, they are also unlikely to belong to a church. Further statistics 60% of older adults believe belong to a church. So this is generational 60% of older adults belong to a church, but only 58% of baby boomers, 50% of Generation X and 36% of millennials. The trend continues with Generation Z, where only 35% claim religious affiliation. Now, not only do we see that decline generationally, but there has also been a significant decline in older generations in terms of church attendance.
Dr. Mapson:And lest I bore you with these statistics, I think the bottom line is that there's serious implications for the future of the church, at least in terms of church attendance, and so what we want to do is to not only be challenged by these issues, but we want to look at the present state of the church and ask the question about what shape the church will take, and maybe not as so much an issue of whether or not there will be a black church 25, 50 years from now, but what shape will it be? One of the good things about the church historically has been that it has been able to adapt to its environment and the church has gone through periods where it has had these kinds of challenges before in terms of the future of the church as an institution. And so when we're living in a time when there is a general decline in trust in institutions and affiliation with institutions, obviously the church is caught up in that larger trend of people not finding any value in being members of institutions. There's a mistrust in governmental institutions, there is a falling away in membership in lodges and fraternal organizations and sororities, so, across the board, there seems to be a falling away in terms of institutions. So when we look at the church, we look at the traditions of the church which have been handed down to us and we see these traditions being devalued. We have to ask ourselves what in the tradition needs to be preserved and celebrated and made stronger, and what are the traditions that can no longer serve us in a media-driven, digital 21st century environment.
Dr. Mapson:What is the importance of defining what church is? A community of believers meeting together in a designated space, a location. And we do say that the church is not the building, but in the real sense it is the building. It's the space, and we love that space. You know, we love the space where we come together and worship. We love the building. We try to maintain the building as best we can. So it is a location, and, when we look biblically, it would appear that God is pleased with His people coming together to worship him in a particular location. God commands Solomon to build a temple and to come together in a place where he has placed his own name, and, and then we move into the new testament. Why was it important for, uh, the early believers to come together in a particular location, a place called the Upper Room, being together of one accord? And from that small gathering, the church began to grow and to spread to other places, and to spread to other places, and so, 2,000 years later, the church is all over the world.
Dr. Mapson:What we face now, though, is the challenge of what defines church. Is it just a location? Is it just the gathering of the people of God? What is it that constitutes community today, and in a digital world, in a world of social media, in a world that so many changes have taken place, I think accelerated by the pandemic, when we began using virtual worship, first as a necessity, but now as an alternative. But now as an alternative.
Dr. Mapson:How can we reimagine, reset and renew as a way of looking at the challenges before us in redefining what community is, redefining what the church is. We've redefined how we lift offerings and the model of bringing the tithes to the altar, the model of just being together for worship has been challenged by the opportunities that we have now to give online. And what does that mean? And how do we maintain theological content in giving online rather than giving in person or giving by mail or texting to give? And so we have been forced, I think, to think outside the box. We've been forced to find other ways that God can use us and that we can be the church and even become a more effective church than we have been in the past. But what it means is the ability to reimagine, the ability to look at ministry. What are new ministries that need to emerge? What are old ministries that are no longer effective, no longer viable today?
Dr. Mapson:What are some of the challenges that we face today as leaders in the black church? I think one of the challenges is the defining and redefining the role of leadership and the way in which leaders become more effective by building relationships with the people that they're seeking to lead, equipping the saints, equipping the people of God for leadership, so that leadership is not transactional Leadership, rather is relational. And then there's a need for leadership to begin a process of reimagining and renewing and resetting and generational changes that are taking place, but in doing so to remain faithful to our faith and to our doctrinal positions. At what point do we say there's a line that we don't cross in order for the church to be the church, so that the church doesn't become a puppet of the culture and remain a prophetic voice of the culture? What kind of leadership do we need to equip people? Today there's a call to action for us as leaders. What can we do to ensure that our ministries remain impactful?
Dr. Mapson:How can we balance tradition with what we see on the contemporary scene so that tradition is not discarded but tradition is used as a springboard to looking at church differently? There's an author by the name of Soren Pelikan who says who distinguishes between tradition and traditionalism? It says that traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. Tradition is the living faith of the living. Tradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism, the dead faith of the living. Tradition, is the living faith of the dead, and so how can we wed tradition, not seeing tradition as a bad word or a negative, but using tradition as a bad word or negative, but using tradition as a springboard to the future.
Dr. Mapson:I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Dr. Mapson:Do you believe that the black church is losing its influence?
Dr. Mapson:And, if so, we need to continue this conversation.
Dr. Mapson:I do not claim to have the answers, but I do want to raise the questions because I don't think that there are any easy solutions and easy answers, and so if you want to go further or deeper into this topic, you need to check out the companion blog post at ministryforwardcom ministryforwardcom, under the resources tab. It's completely free and designed to help you apply what we have discussed on today. So if you found this episode helpful, make sure you subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so you don't miss future episodes. I'm excited because, as we continue our conversations, we're going to bring in guests and have dialogue with guests, so that we can bring in other voices and other minds to help us sort through these difficult times, these difficult times, but always to keep in mind, it's a wonderful time to be alive, wonderful time to be a Christian and wonderful time to be challenged, much like the early church exciting time to be challenged to find ways to continue to become effective. Thank you for joining us and continue to keep on leading, keep on serving and keep the faith. God bless you.
