The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson is where real conversations meet real ministry. We tackle the hard questions facing today’s Black Church—from leadership and discipleship to cultural shifts and spiritual relevance. Hosted by Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr., this channel is a space for pastors, ministry leaders, and believers who are ready to reflect, wrestle, and reimagine what church can look like in today’s world.
New episodes drop every other Wednesday with honest insights, thoughtful dialogue, and wisdom from decades of ministry.
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The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
Ep 04: Built For This: A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown
What does it look like to lead with clarity, courage, and consistency—across pulpits, classrooms, and communities? In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown joins Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. for a powerful conversation about calling, character, and the kind of leadership the Church needs today.
From receiving her call to preach at age 13 to becoming the first woman to lead the historic Shiloh Baptist Church in Plainfield, NJ, Dr. Brown’s journey is one marked by intentional preparation, trusted mentorship, and spiritual resilience. She opens up about her years at Cathedral International, the influence of leaders like Bishop Donald Hilliard Jr. and Rev. Dr. Bernadette Glover, and the formative advice that helped her embrace her call early: “Honor God first.”
This episode also explores how her time as a three-sport athlete at Virginia State University uniquely equipped her for ministry leadership. She shares how lessons from the court—discipline, team roles, accountability—directly shape her pastoral philosophy and approach to building healthy ministry teams.
Listeners will gain insight into:
- How to discern and respond to a call at any age
- Why listening before leading is essential in new ministry contexts
- The value of mentorship and preparation in shaping effective leadership
- How to build and empower ministry teams with vision and structure
- What it means to lead as a woman in historically male-dominated spaces
Whether you’re a senior pastor, emerging leader, or someone seeking to serve faithfully where you are, this conversation offers both inspiration and strategy for living out your purpose with excellence.
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Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to the Ministry Exchange with Dr Mabson. If you have not already, I invite you to subscribe so you won't miss any new episodes, which are released every other Wednesday, and be sure to follow us on social media at Ministry Forward to stay connected. This podcast has been designed to help equip pastors and ministry leaders and leaders of the church by offering an authentic dialogue and practical insights for today's ever-changing ministry landscape, and so, whether you're a seasoned pastor, a new pastor or somewhere in between, this space is for you. I'm delighted today to welcome to this podcast Reverend Dr Danielle Brown, who is the senior pastor of the Shallow Baptist.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:I mentioned it to others that I've had on the podcast. There were influences in our lives in terms of how we came into ministry, how we started doing other things, how we started doing other things. Can we talk about your beginning in ministry as a very young person, having received a call, and what did you think about that? Was it a kind of are you sure, lord, or why me? Or is it something that was stirring in you all along? But just talk about that, and then I'm going to ask you about your pastor and that influence as well.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Well, first you know, I tell people that I fell in love with Jesus in my grandma's house. I fell in love with the church at the's house. I fell in love with the church at the Second Baptist Church of Perth, amboy, new Jersey, the church that I grew up in, that my grandmother was very much a part of. I experienced my call to ministry at 13 years old, to ministry at 13 years old, and at that time I felt like but preaching women are not girls. You know, I tell this story often, right, that preaching women are grown women, and I wasn't grown, and so I felt like I had time. But of course I knew that women could preach, because my pastor brought women to preach and our executive pastor, dr Bernadette Glover, you know, was a woman, but none of them were 13, right, so I didn't have this kind of frame of reference for a child preacher. But I knew what the Lord said to me and I wrestled with it until I was 16 years old because I felt like, well, maybe at some point it'll also go away, right, that maybe I was caught up in the excitement of a moment, but I would still kind of, you know, in my private time, have conversations with God about this sense of call.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:At 16, I had a conversation with Pastor Phyllis Hilliard. We were in the car going to pick up one of her daughters from dance class and I said you know, the Lord has called me. And I explained to her, shared with her what that experience was. She said promise me one thing that you won't make God wait until after you've done everything else you want to do in life Honor God first, respond to God first. And so I kept that. I hid that in my heart and graduated high school, went to college, my freshman year at Virginia State.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:The sense of call was really, really intensifying. Of course, I ended up on campus with John Faison John Ryan Faison, who pastors the Watson Grove Baptist Church in Nashville, and he was already going home to preach revivals. Right, I got there, my next door neighbor, tiffany Dawn Sykes, who's now the athletic director of Virginia State. Her mom was a pastor, her mom was in ministry and I was just surrounded by people who were you know, and then, being in that environment, there was just something intensifying. So I knew that it was time to just yield to what God was saying.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I called Dr Glover and you know we met when I got home on fall break and I shared with her this sense of call. She was not surprised, you know, they were just waiting for me to say something. And so at that point she said to me you know, she gave me a book, the Pursuit of God by AW Tozer. She told me to read it and then we would talk after I read it. But you know, go back to school, make the dean's list and we'll talk to you when you graduate.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:That informal kind of training started then, because every time I'd come home, dr Glover would meet with me at the Perkins on Route 22 in Greenbrook, new Jersey. Wildly, it's like a stone's throw from Shiloh Baptist Church, but we would meet there at the Perkins and she would talk to me about life. She'd ask me questions about what I was reading, what my prayers sounded like. She was starting that training process right for ministry. And then I graduated college and I got licensed. They did license me. By that time I was kind of bootleg preaching, I guess they call it without a license.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:But you know, and then here we are. You know, I think for you. I think two things, bishop Hilliard, you know I commend him, for I commend him for One is there was a sense of accepting of women in ministry. That helped that process and made it easier. And also the emphasis on education, absolutely Because he has sent many students to Palmer, because I taught a couple of them years ago in a preaching class. So you know talk about him.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Second Baptist Church. Every pastor has been educated Growing up in Second Baptist. Bishop Hilliard had an MDiv and maybe I was very young when he graduated from United with his doctorate. Dr Glover had a doctorate. My youth pastor was a student at Princeton Seminary and when I became an employee at the church the job description of the youth pastor required a master's degree or in progress right, one in progress, and so that was the culture right of the church was that if you go into ministry, you know education was a. It was not a negotiable that you would go to seminary.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So even early on I remember being a teenager and just kind of, you know, you dream about your future. I was a teenager who would daydream every now and then about where I would be. Of course, none of my daydreams looked like what my life looks like now, but I knew that if I was going to answer this call to ministry I was going to seminary, and so I'd write my name out right, danielle L Brown, you know, m-e-d, m-div, because that much I did know that if I was going to answer I wanted to be the superintendent of schools in Perth, amboy, or go back to Virginia State and be the head basketball coach. So I knew I needed a degree in education. That was where you know the direction I was headed. But then I knew that if I yielded to this call and I was going to do this preaching on the side, I needed to go to seminary. But that was the culture. Everyone our music director had a master's degree at Second Baptist Church, cathedral International, and it was encouraged. The congregation encouraged us as young people to pursue education. Bishop Hilliard, it was just no one on staff was not seminary trained or in progress. And then those that were working in non-ministry roles right, also were people with master's degrees, and you know it was unapologetically promoted. But there was also balance there too, because I know people may hear that there was also balance and promoting trades right and entrepreneurship, and in other areas of life too.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So then, with the women in ministry, I quoted earlier today Dr Prathia. I heard her preach that sermon as a little girl. She came to preach. There was Dr Charles Adams was supposed to come to do our conference and there was vandalism at his church in Detroit, and so Dr Prathia came and preached in his stead. That's what I heard her say. You know, preach that sermon and make that comment about God not being a God over there. You know pie in the sky and the by and by, but he's right here. Dr Prathia, my mentor and mother in ministry. Dr Cynthia Hale I met her because she would come to our church Dr Claudette Copeland, dr Renita Weems, dr Elaine Flake there were so many women who were just, you know, excellent that Bishop Hilliard would bring to the church, probably not even knowing that they were influencing and helping to shape this little girl's idea of what ministry could and should be.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and back to the educational piece. I think the black church not all of them, obviously, but so many have encouraged education and encouraged by people who themselves didn't have an education, absolutely yeah. You know, we'd go to college and come back and they were always encouraging. Sometimes putting a dollar back in my time it was a dollar in your hand and just encouraging. But that and you said it earlier today, the black church has been that nurturing piece of our lives that helped us to be what we are now.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And encouraged us right, gave us legs. I remember emceeing all of the programs right, the children's choir programs and Joy Bell anniversaries. That was our children's choir and long before I was a preacher and a pastor, I was an emcee, dressed in a dashiki, you know, and a black skirt. That was our standard outfit at Cathedral for that Joy Bells Choir and it laid a foundation, also confidence that if nowhere in the world told us that we were somebody, growing up in that black church, we felt that we were somebody, that children were partakers. It was a wonderful church to grow up in and I tried to to duplicate that right at Shiloh, to have that same environment for children where they know our statement at Shiloh is that the church is for children and for children. And you come here, you're somebody, you're wonderful, even at your worst. Right, we'll work with you until you get even better at it. That's what it was for me.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and I've seen that at Shiloh. By the way, being a Newarker myself and my dad being a pastor, I knew Second Baptist way back, you know way back. Mcmartin was a pastor in my growing up years. But when we turn to Shiloh, you know everything that you spoke about today at the conference, I see at work at Shiloh. Just talk about Shiloh was not one of your dreams, right? I take it. I didn't know. Never Did you want to be a pastor or something, because a lot of ministers you know I want to be a pastor or something Because a lot of ministers you know I want to be a minister and do some, but I'm not interested in pastoring at all. Was that kind of for me? It was okay, call to preach meant call to pastor. So I mean I never. There was never any doubt that that's what I wanted. What was that like for you?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:At first my idea was that I was going to be the superintendent of schools and I was going to preach on the side, like preaching would be my weekend thing, but as a vocation, you know full time and the way that it's happening now I didn't see it and I tell people often that Shiloh is a dream that I didn't know to dream for myself. People often that Shiloh is a dream that I didn't know to dream for myself. And then I was in ministry for 15 years.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I was on staff at my home church cathedral, where you know born and raised as time had gone on and the more I think with every yes I mentioned that earlier today that with every yes that I gave God, it seems that something else unfolded Right, that for every step I took, that God would kind of open another possible expression for the ministry that I was called to, this ministry of the gospel. I did not see myself pastoring a church, and certainly not Shiloh, like I didn't have necessarily a frame of reference for Shiloh, except the third location at Cathedral was in Plainfield, and so I would sometimes drive by Shiloh to get to Cathedral International at Plainfield location, yet to a cathedral international as a Plainfield location. But but in terms of what was happening in the church, who was there, the dynamics, it, it wasn't necessarily even a frame of reference that I had. So as time went on I started feeling like there was another expression that that I I enjoyed being on staff. Bishop Hilliard gave me a lot of space to to serve and and to do different things and to explore and build muscles right For ministry um under his leadership.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:But then there was a point where I realized like no, you know, okay, god is calling me to be a senior pastor. It was difficult to articulate that. I think there's this thing that happens for women when men are called to ministry and they respond to the call, the immediate thing is all right, you're going to have your own. When women are called to ministry, we're often socialized and even prepared to be a solid support role person. Among my sisters in ministry and we have these conversations more of us are being called to senior pastorates. It seems that one of the common threads is that we all felt that we had to be a number two, that there wasn't this like I'm responding to my call and then immediately I'm going to go and search a senior pastorate. We're searching executive pastor roles or Christian education or youth pastor roles and then sometimes feel that it's betrayal, almost right, to pursue something outside of that Betrayal to the place where we're planted. And so there was a while it took a minute for me to be able to articulate it, and that's where mentors like Dr Cynthia Hale come in.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Bishop Hilliard had come home from Hampton one year and he said a woman preached Hampton this year and she reminded me of you and I'm like you know I wasn't there. I called Kenny Clayton in Patterson and St Luke in Patterson. I'm like Bishop said a woman preached Hampton, who was it? And he's like, oh, Dr Gina Stewart. And I'm like Bishop said, a woman Priest Hampton, who was it? And he's like, oh, dr Gina Stewart. And I'm like, okay, can you tell me about her? And he's telling me. He's like you don't know, he's like shocked, like how do you not know her, like you know. So I looked her up and I could not. I was, oh, my goodness, I watched her.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I'm like this woman is a senior pastor and she is in charge, like you know, and just herself, like, with all that, those that have experienced the ministry of Dr Stewart, it was her, seeing her in that role, that also helped to kind of give me some confidence there. And then Dr Hale saying to me, who said, right, that you can't have it all, who said that you can only be this. And then after a while and prayer, right, and God working on me and you know sometimes things get difficult, that things can become a little difficult, and that is the thing that prompts you to really just kind of pursue what God is saying and we landed in a pandemic. And it really was during that pandemic. When it was, you know, I was spending a lot of time, just me and God. Right, that really began to, you know, just intensify that I want to pursue what I feel that God is doing, and here we are.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Right, and so it seemed like those stages just prepared you for the moment. Wow, that Shiloh was calling Right, right. Shiloh chose you at a point of your readiness to be chosen for that assignment as the number one person, not second Not second, but as their senior pastor, which was a and a number one person for a number one church.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:meaning, you know, shiloh is a great church, was a great church, is, is, is great and greater, but uh, one of the leading churches, churches uh, historically, yeah, and you know, I I knew of shallow again when I was uh growing up in newark right because my dad and a ross brent yeah, because my dad and A Ross Brent exchanged pulpits so my dad would preach for his deacons come out to Plainfield Back then.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:You know we had afternoon services every Sunday and then Dr Brent would take Shiloh to Newark. So I grew up with that.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Wow.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Story I may not have told you, but Gardner Taylor eulogized A Ross Brent right. Yes, so I can remember driving my dad to the funeral. We're in the parking lot, gardner Taylor gets out of his car. Now this is the Gardner Taylor right and I speak to him. And he speaks to me and says young man, do you know where the pastor's study is? I said yes, sir, and I didn't know. But I said yes to him and he said shall we proceed? And I took him, I found my way to the pastor's study, but that history of Shiloh and then having a strong friendship with two of its pastors after that I've seen the history, I know the church, and now you go there and take this church that was already a great church to just great heights, because that doesn't always happen, right, and you went into a situation where some healing needed to be done, some pieces had to be put back together, and it doesn't always happen.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:There's always this story about this preacher who calls up one of his buddies and says I've been called to this church and so, and so His friend says that's a big church, you think you can handle that. And he says don't worry, I'll bring it down to my size and that happens a lot. And here you go and and you know we do make a big deal about the first, the first woman, because it is, it is a big deal and yet, um, you, you go there and you just, I was there in worship with you for your church anniversary last year. There's a vibrancy. Worship was colorful, young people were active, there were men in worship, the choir was exciting. It seemed like a drama unfolding, which I think worship is. It's an unfolding drama and I saw that and that just doesn't happen by accident. With the gifts you already had, being at the cathedral and all that you had seen and known, you have put some things into place. What are you most proud of in terms of some things that you put in place at Salo? You?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:know. I think what I'm most proud of is our team. What I'm most proud of is our team, the way that our kind of core team has gelled nicely right of people who were there, who were at the church for many years, with new people who are coming in, who have certain skills and abilities. I think what I'm most proud of is when I look at them as we approach year four. There's no old Shiloh, new Shiloh. We are, we're one. I think that that is what I'm most proud of, because that is a lot of what yields the growth, the excitement.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:What we've been able to see right has been a group of people, a core group of people that were there, who elected me, who wanted their church to live and they love their pastor, they've loved all of their pastors. So that kind of culture, their pastor, they've loved all of their pastors. So that kind of culture coming into that kind of culture. As a person who genuinely loves people and I love the church I think that the church is essential. I would hear Bishop Hilliard quote Gardner Taylor saying that the black church is the last vestige of hope for humanity. I believe that I believe it, and so I think that kind of combination, plus God's timing and favor, has yielded some things. But when I'm most proud, or when I think about what I'm most proud of, I see that team sitting around the table, multiple ages, ages, backgrounds, men, women. There's children at the table and I think that that team coming together I can't be great by myself. Yeah, but having a great team is what makes Shiloh great.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, yeah a team that you assembled? Yes, because of leadership. How does one, how does one do that, making the, the, the, the persons who been members of shallow? You know every church has that, you know we've been here and an infusion of new people blending together so that there's no old and new. But it takes a leader to identify the persons who fit where they need to fit seamlessly. And again, I mean, I think, in terms of helping, you know, younger preachers, pastors and all of us. That just doesn't happen accidentally. It happens, I would think, with a leader, seeing what a person, and not necessarily just people. I think we also want people who are not afraid to offer their own opinions and things like that, because I think that helps as well. But just, I guess the question is, how do you do that?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So Shiloh elected me in August. My first Sunday would be that following October. So I was taking a little break before I started, but I started. So I was taking a little break before I started, but I started. They elected me on Saturday. I started Monday and I asked the question who are the most difficult folks around here?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And so between August and October I was taking people to lunch. I was having lunch meetings at Red Lobster and different places, one-on-one conversations where I would ask questions and then just let people talk. I wanted to know about their hopes for the church, right that, if you've been here, how long all of your life and you're, you know you're 85. So tell me what it was like with this pastor, with this pastor, with this pastor, what are you most proud of? What are your hopes for the church, right? Um, and in those many conversations I also got an idea of who was there. I learned about, uh, some of Shiloh's rhythms. Um, I also learned where some of the landmines were. Uh, because when you know, when you give people a lot red lobster biscuits, you'd be surprised how they start to just tell you everything, right? So conversation, it started with relationship and then initially I did not come in the door changing things, with the exception of worship, because I needed worship to feel a certain way, to be a certain way. I knew that I came in the door with a mandate. The congregation had done a congregational study and there were three things that were of importance engaging younger people. So I knew that in order to do that, we would have to kind of shape worship to be one user-friendly, but also to have a range where we're not leaving Mother Trawick, who's in her 90s, out, but we're also not leaving Gavin, who's nine, out either, right, that there could be something there for everyone. The other thing, the second thing, was more volunteers. They wanted more people serving in ministry, because that core of folks who were still there when I got there they were tired, they'd been serving. They wanted more volunteers.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And then the third thing was a clear vision. I am a systems person, so I'm kind of always and an educator, so things kind of happen methodically. I also am a child of cathedral, 15 years on staff with Bishop. One thing about my pastor he is incredibly creative, right, but he's abstract, and so you learn, when someone is thinking abstractly, how to filter information on the go. That's part of Bishop's visionary nature, right, is that he'll think something, and then you kind of figure out how to create the system so that it can happen. Figure out how to create the system so that it can happen, and so that was kind of a superpower that I go into Shiloh and then the church begins to grow.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So now we had to change things. So then I had more conversations. I'd ask well, how does new members work? Right, what are we doing? Because people are joining the church, but what is the system so that everyone gets kind of the same experience? I heard about that and then I made adjustments there that okay, it's got to come out of Christian ed. It's too much, it's got to be its own standalone ministry. It can't just be an arm of Christian ed. So we changed that. But then it's like, well, who?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And the more people I talked to when I began to appoint people, so Deaconess Charlotte Banks, I'll use her and I'll call her name on a podcast that when I talked to people about new members, her name was a consistent name. So I said, hey, I need you to lead new members. She has been outstanding for four years. If I describe a person, deaconess Banks can tell me who it is right I can say, uh, there was a sister who was about, you know, six feet tall and had on a red dress at, uh, you know, right-handed fellowship, oh, so-and-so. She can call the name. She knows those folks, she's. She has assembled her own team.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:My parameters for that were include everybody, right, all ages. You have the liberty, as the leader to. I'm going to trust you with building your team. Trust is a big thing and so giving them that freedom, but then affirmation also helps. She's amazing. Now people call Deaconess Banks to find out, like, how do you all do this process? Or to talk through how we have set up our new members process. And then, of course, we took it from 10 sessions or whatever to one day, because it's user friendly, and I felt like we don't have continuing education credits to give you for a whole semester, so one day works. I have continuing education credits to give you for a whole semester, so one day works. So conversation, relationship, and then the names that I heard for positive reasons echoed.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I would ask those people, right, because I knew that they had respect, but they also had some leadership capacity. Already, as newer people have come in, it's been the same way that, hey, you know what do you like to do, or I watch them and then I see that they're kind of functioning a certain way or they've been drawn to serve a certain way, and then I've given them an opportunity to also lead and participate in leadership. But giving those leaders the opportunity to kind of build their teams has expanded the net, because there's people that you know, my people, will come to me and they're like, oh, brother J has joined the church and this is what Brother J does, and I'm like which one is Brother J right? So now the people are fishers of other leaders, of other leaders. I believe in a culture of succession. So I don't necessarily micromanage leaders, because I think that it's everyone's responsibility to kind of grab some folks and bring them along. But I need to allow people to do that their way, not without boundaries, not without parameters, not without some rules. Right, you don't do whatever you want, but your leadership style may be different than mine. The way that trustee Pat Fields leads the cordials Right, which is that big ministry Right, is very different than than I may have thought to organize them. But I give her freedom and empower her to lead.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I think that in settings where you empower people to lead, other people are drawn to empowerment, and that's kind of been what we're doing. There's been some surprises. I've had to make hard decisions that when I've made a decision to appoint someone and then over time I've realized I did not make a good decision, and then I've got to own that right for the people who have been impacted by a bad decision. But also, you know, kind of deal with it in my own heart, right, that the disappointment of oh god, but but I think that that's. I hope that answers your question. I think you know just that that's. I hope that that answers your question. I think you know just that that kind of empowering other people and then not feeling that someone else's questions or inquiry, pastoring is humbling because people will push back, and one of the things that I've realized is that that's not a sign of disrespect.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Often it is a need for clarity. That when you offer people clarity they're more likely to walk with you. Now, some they've you know you offer them clarity. They are already bent on not having clarity, right, they're already, they're already committed to misunderstanding. But but I think when you're willing to give folks clarity about why, right, why we're doing this, why we're doing it this way, when you can connect those things to the bigger picture.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:They're also kind of willing to serve and they want to show up right as their best self. They really want to do a great job, not just for the pastor, but they want to do a great job for God, and that's the kind of church that the Lord sent me to which I'm so grateful. Sometimes I wonder you know well, what am I doing to do? Because I didn't even plan this right to have 1,500 members come in this period of time. And you know, sunday we do it every month a new member confirmation and baptism. But we're baptizing 14 and giving right-handed fellowship to 40 on Sunday and I'm like, what was the plan? We just, you know, some things are just really the breath of God, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:This episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner, Terry Funeral Home. Incorporated For over 85 years, they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion and consistency of Gregory T Burrell. Terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name, offering guidance and support when it's needed the most. So, whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss, Terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity, clarity and compassion when families need it the most. To find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence, visit TerryFuneralHomecom and thank you, TerryFuneralHomecom, and thank you. And also, you know, it seems like you were prepared for the growth, because some people, you know we want churches to grow, but when it starts to happen, what am I going to do with this? Right, how am I going to manage this? But you have a system in place, leaders in place to manage the growth so that it doesn't become overwhelming and turn out to be something that's negative.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:at Second Baptist Church when I was born, h McMartin was the pastor. My grandmother was on the pulpit committee that called Bishop Hilliard to come to Second Baptist. But I am a product of a mega church. So as I was growing up, cathedral was also growing right. The church that I was in was growing, which meant that at different stages of life I was exposed to different systems that occurred because of the growth in our church. So there's something I think, inherent to the way that I think about ministry that's always kind of lent to going from here to here. If that makes sense, right, going from here to here, all right, we right Going from here to here, or all right, we've reached this. But now we've got a plan. And part of that is because as I was growing up, the church that I was connected to and involved in was also growing and I was not just kind of marginally involved in the life of the church. So that life experience and journey has, I think, also helped where Shiloh is concerned, because all I know is transition and shifting to accommodate the season and the life of the church and then multiple.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So we ultimately, when I was on staff full time, I came on staff as a youth pastor. And so I would get up and I would, 7.30 in the morning, drive down to the Asbury Park location to preach teen church there. But that was one culture of church down at the shore, a kind of medium sized church. You know two, 300 people in that location. So so it looked different, ministry looked different, dynamics were different.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And then I'd come back up to main campus at 1030, uh, in Perth, amboy, and do teen church there. But that's the the you know, main site. You know we've got thousands of people here and and you know a lot of kids and dynamics are different. And then I go to Plainfield that that was more a family size church, right, so maybe a hundred people in the evening, and that had a dynamic. So so for all of those years and my formative, like early ministry years, I was doing ministry in three different places. Right, one place but three different dynamics. That that I was a part of. And so I think that that built some muscles too, that that, hey, for something to be this size, things have to work like this. For something to be this size, you've got to adjust and it's got to look like this, um, so yeah, yeah, you mentioned earlier today about um, understanding a church's culture, right, and you can't.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:You know this church. The culture may be different in this church and that church. You have to kind of know no one size fits all right situation, and that's, I think that's exactly what you're talking about in those three locations. Then you come to Shiloh, and that's another culture that you have to know about in order to be effective. There Can we go back to. Let's talk about sports. Okay, because you are a three sport athlete, what that was like, and the connection to ministry, if there's one. How has that been helpful, impactful? Uh, because you don't see that right, that merging too often. Yeah, yeah, I think. Let me ask you did you ever have any ambition of being playing sports professionally?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:no, because when I was coming up, it wasn't you know, it wasn't a thing the WNBA and ABL. I was probably, you know, headed to college by that time and I didn't want to make a career out of playing. You know, at that point I wanted to be the superintendent of schools or a basketball coach. I did see myself coaching and I did. I coached high school for a year or two, but I knew I needed to go back to school, so I gave up coaching to get my first master's degree. So, no, but I think that there are parallels my team says it often, like you know, I think, in terms of sports, like team sports. So the same way that I would coach a basketball team, and some of the same ideas and principles.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Right, knowing your role on the floor. Right, knowing your role not just on the floor but even on the bench, that when you're not on the floor or you're not the primary person in a certain situation or on a certain project, you still have a responsibility to cheer. Right, you still got a responsibility to cheer. Right, you still got a responsibility to watch the game, keep your head in the game, pay attention to what's happening, but when you're on the floor. You know, point guards have to know how to be a point guard. Shooting guards have to know the requirements for a shooting guard. Post players need to know what their role is, and everyone plays their role on both ends of the floor, right? But it's not just enough for people to know their role. You've got to know your neighbor's role, right. You have to know their strengths. When I was playing college basketball, one of the things that my coach, the late Peggy Davis, would often get on me about was passing the ball to my teammates, who may not necessarily be soft-handed on the go, and so they might drop a pass. But she'd say that was your fault because you know that that's not their strength. So why would you insist on passing the ball to somebody where you know that it's not their strength to catch it there, that you need them to get a few more steps down to the block before you give them the ball, or they have to be stationary? That you've got to know your teammates right.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I think that we spend a lot of time focused on our own personal growth and development, that we want to be the best we can be, but in ministry it's not enough for us. Yes, work on you, right. You do want to maximize and be all that God has called you to be, but while you're doing it, you've got to pay attention to the people around you. Even Jesus did ministry with a team, right, and so so you've got to pay attention to, to the rhythms of the game, even when you know. Pay attention to preaching even when you don't have an opportunity to preach, right. Prepare for it Even when you're not in the starting lineup, Right. That's what happens, that you might get a breakout moment, and you want to be prepared because that's how teams work.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Also, this, this commitment, I think that you know team sports are connected, definitely, there's parallels, but even coaching. Last week I was at Enon for Dawn Staley's book release and listening to her talk about how she leads her girls, right, and some of the things that, no, you have to suffer a little bit, that everything is not just going to come to you, you don't get it your way all the time, and so kind of leading people who and the same is true of ministry right that we have associates who want things their way. We've got ministry leaders who want things their way. We've got, you know, folks all around us and everyone has a idea and agenda and we're having to redirect them and coach them into serving a bigger picture that is about all of us.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Or associates who feel that they could do what you do.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Do what you do right and with no fruit, no evidence of having led well, anything yet right. But think that just because they said yes, that now you know they should have as much preaching opportunity and you know things.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And now you have to tell them no or set boundaries where, where people may be behaving a certain way, you know, and you have to bring correction and they don't like it. So they go and tell all their friends and you know having to deal with the pressure. And so Don Staley was talking about you know getting calls from parents because their kids are crying because they didn't get playing time. And you know, and I'm like this sounds so much like, you know, pastoral ministry, but I think also the resilience that it takes to to compete in athletics is is also parallel right to spiritual growth and development and fortitude, right, this faith that we start out and we're not right. It does not yet appear where we're going to be, but there's some sticking with this, there's some work that we've got to do so that in time, you know, we know, we'll be more like Jesus. I think that sports is the same way that you start out. You're not as in shape as you want to be, right, or as you should be, but you work on it, right. Your skills are not as fine-tuned as you want them to be or as they need to be, but the more you work on it, the stronger you get and the stronger you get, then there's some things that you can do that you never imagined that you would do but it took. You know the process of preparing and training and being coached and having people around you as teammates right, who are cheering you on that ultimately lead you to things that you never imagined. And I think that there is that parallel also with faith plus the discipline sports, because I might have gotten super distracted at different points in my life if I didn't have curfews and you know, and have to be training and doing all of that. There are some things my teammates and I, when we get together now and we talk about our college basketball coach who passed away last October, you know we say, like we survived Peggy Davis, like there's nothing we can't do in life, right, that we survive preseason training with her, seasons with her, and so, yeah, I think that I see it all the time.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:There's always some kind of situation where I might hear one of my coaches again, Coach Davis would tell me, danielle, it's the next pass. Again, coach Davis would tell me, danielle, it's the next pass. And so sometimes there's things that we can do in ministry that might turn out good, but I would hear her saying to me like Danny Brown is the next pass? Comment was in reference to, like, seeing an opportunity to score and you can take the opportunity to score, but it would be a little harder than if you just wait until the next pass.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Right, that I might have to kind of go in the lane and around somebody if I take the first opening. But if I pass that ball one more time as a team right, we can score and do it a lot easier. That ball one more time as a team right, we can score and do it a lot easier Um, we might get a closer shot or a more wide open shot, um. And so sometimes you know I'm thinking of opportunities or things come, uh, people have ideas and it's like, oh, that's a great idea, like we could do that, and then I'll hear coach Davis, it's the next pass, you know. So so don't be. You know, take time and be patient, let ministry come to you, right, you don't necessarily have to force it, all of those things. There's so many parallels between sports and ministry that you know.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Were you able to go to a funeral?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I was not, I was preaching, but we were able to. At the CIAA this year she was inducted into the Hall of Fame, she got an award and so as a team we were able to go down and support her family in that. But yeah, I hear oftentimes you know leaders don't. She would say leaders don't leave from the back. You know when we were running and I hated running, but you know, leaders don't lead from the back. And I tell that same thing to the leaders in my church Right, leaders don't lead from the back. And that's not just where you sit, you know. Not, you know because you may not be sitting always up front, but in terms of ethic, yeah.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Right that you can't be a leader and have the worst prayer life. Right, right, you can't lead and not give.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:You can't lead and we don't see you serving and that's beyond Sunday morning, right? That? Don't worry about preaching on a Sunday morning as a preacher If you can't pray Monday through Friday, right, you know we got 630 prayer call. Lead the prayer call and then some of those other things will come. When you're faithful where you are, you know, more opportunities will open and that also is very much a sports thing that you don't get out of it what you don't put in.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And some people don't want to hear that.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:They don't want to hear it.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:They don't want to hear that message and truth be told, sometimes I don't, I don't want to hear that, they don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear that message and truth be told, sometimes I don't, I didn't want to hear it. You know, there's some things that sometimes I don't want to hear. Now, right. But that also is where you know being able to uh, recalibrate and go, go to the lord.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:There's no place I tell shallow this all the time, there's no place in in in our journey with god, called arrived right that that there's no place in our journey with God, called arrived right. That there's no stage in this walk with the Lord where there's not something we could be working on. Right that even as senior pastors, you know, or what have you, there's some areas where today we're strong and tomorrow we've had it right. But then you got to go back to the Lord like Lord, help me today to do a great job with this. And then the understanding that these are God's people. Yeah, god has given me the opportunity to steward as their pastor, or shepherd as their pastor, and I want to be a good steward of the opportunity.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, yeah, just a quick note on the United.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yes.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:United Seventh, which has been I mean, I've known of United for years Now. Did your pastor, was your pastor in the class with some of? There was a class with Sujay.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yes, he was in that first class of Johnson Cook.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes, Charles Booth, was it Dr Wright? Yeah?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Johnson Cook.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes, charles Booth, was it Dr Wright? Yeah, dr Wright Wright Brooklyn.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Young Blood.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, dr Young Blood. Yeah, that was a great class.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yeah, he was in that first class of Proctor Fellows.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and what are you so?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:now at United I am a mentor along with my brothers in ministry, dr Philip Pointer and Dr Charles Goodman, and so the three of us together we mentor the Pointer Brown Goodman Fellows, which is church growth and leadership through creative preaching, or church growth through creative preaching and leadership. Our church grows through creative preaching and leadership and so we have the largest cohort ever in the history. That's what they tell us, and our group is really dynamic. We give opportunity to our students to see models of ministry, a range of models, while they're doing their doctoral study. We bring in different voices to speak to them as well while they're also doing the coursework at United.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:But it's been a joy and really that mentoring process one because Goodman and Poynter are two of the greatest ministry minds really alive, and I mean that wholeheartedly, like just listening to the way they process and think about things has also being in the room has been a super, you know, impactful growth point for me to hear them and they've been in many, you know pastoring their churches like 17 and you know, several years, so gleaning from their wisdom, but also the students have. Also I feel like I'm a better pastor and thinker because of this opportunity to mentor doctoral students, as I'm listening to their ideas and walking with them through their their study. It has also been really good, but it's an amazing program. I think you know we give a shout out. Come on to the Porter Brown Goodman Doctoral Fellows.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and for me, observing it, having these great minds and leaders mentoring students, it's kind of like having well, sam Proctor was the mentor and teacher for that class and how they've done that over the years. I think it's a model, kind of a model we had in black colleges and you know you would go there to study under certain people, right? I mean that's.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And one of the the way that Dr Proctor designed that program, because he was the program design. In a lot of programs you'll go in kind of with an idea of what you're going to study and what you're going to write on. Right At United it doesn't necessarily happen that way. So the thing that you are writing about, your problem statement, comes from within. So there's this exploration through a spiritual autobiography and from that spiritual autobiography emerges this problem. Right, a problem, an issue, something that needs a response and intending to, through research and some practical application. It comes out of that spiritual autobiography, which is very different.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I went into my doctoral program and knowing that I wanted to write and study, you know, church renewal and succession, and so it kind of went that way. But United has a different starting point and so I think that makes the experience a little different, because these projects and the work that our students are doing, it literally is coming out of their journey and not just some cool fad project or something that they were interested in. Something that they were interested in there's something deeply connected to their journeys in ministry and life that these projects are the final product of. So I like that about United's program.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And what you said earlier today a program that's helping to reimagine church.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yes, absolutely Reimagine the church church, absolutely.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Let me ask you this and this is a conversation that could go on a long time, but we won't do that but just for those who are watching and trying to discern purpose, or just people who feel that they want to make a difference in the life of the church, are there any practical steps that you would recommend so that they can align their passions with the service they render? And you touched on that earlier, but could you say anything more about how that's done, because it seems that's also a key in getting the right people in the right place to take the church where it needs to go. It's growing, but can you manage the growth?
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yeah, so so I think first um getting people who, uh, you mean pastors. Am I responding to pastors or just people in general?
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Well, maybe both Okay.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:So so I think the first thing is to make sure that you're current with the Lord, right, current in your relationship with God. Uh, for pastors who are kind of making adjustments to put people in place, don't be afraid, right Find also, first be current in your connection with the Lord, because whatever you're doing, make sure you run it by God first, right, that's important. But also have some friends. I think it's important for pastors to have colleagues and some folks who they can run ideas by. There's some things that I may have wanted to do and I'll run it by. You know my brothers, right, pointer and Parks Goodman, john Faison, who you know I'm like, okay, I'm thinking about this and it's like all right. Well, I'm not going to say don't do it, but consider these things right, because being on the outside hearing what you're trying to do, all of your friends can't be people in the church, right? All of your think partners can't be members of your church when you're trying to develop vision and communicate it. It can't be the folks that eventually you're going to are going to have to carry it out because they. It's not good for them to experience you in the unsure stage and then still respect you later, if that that makes sense, right. And I'm not saying don't be authentic with your people or transparent with your people. There's just some things that you have to be sure before you release it in your congregation. So get some friends, and that will help. And friends who love ministry, who do ministry well, who are committed and, and you know, also are committed to your wellbeing and you doing this really well. Um, I would say that, um, and then don't be afraid. Right that if God has given it to you, uh, even if you feel a little, you know, oh, how is this going to turn out? Sometimes the thing you're afraid of most is not even going to happen. I remember being afraid about making a change of personnel at one point, and I look back at it now and I'm like why was I so? Everything I was afraid of didn't even happen. It was all a facade, like what in the world? And so there was that. And then, for people who are lay people, who are not pastoring, who want to make an impact, I think I started at the same starting point right, make sure that you're current in your relationship with God, because the best thing you can do for your church is to make sure that you are connecting with the Lord, that your relationship with God is intact, and then don't discredit what you have right. Don't discredit or discount your ability, your contribution.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:I think sometimes, uh, people feel that they're not making an impact if they're not a part of the big things. Um, not, you know big or little, but if they're not a part of the big moments in in, in the church, in the kingdom, the little things matter too. They do. Right that, that some of the things that we would pass off as little are the most critical things. Right, consistency, showing up to prayer meetings when, when nobody else you know is looking, when there's no cameras on, when, when there's no, you know, um, the the, the little things like caring for members. Right, calling people on the sick list, and you know there's no cameras around that You're not going to get an award for. You know, whoever called the most people? Right, there's no awards there. Whatever it is that is on your heart to do, do that and don't feel that it's not enough or it's insignificant, because if God has thought enough to put it on your heart, it must be significant to the Lord.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And you said earlier too, I remember. I think this is very important about not being afraid to. Sometimes we're going to make mistakes, yes, and owning it. You know, yeah, you know, made a mistake and got to fix it and move on.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And move on. Mistakes are great, even for community. Right, that one of the biggest mistakes I made at Shiloh. Really, as we walk through it on the other side of it, it helped to bond us together. Right, failure or things not going right I'm not saying go fail intentionally now, right, you know, like, let me carve out some failures so that we can, you know, bond as a team. That's not what I'm saying. But when you do things with the right heart and intention and they don't go well, rebounding from those things can help a team grow together.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Right, that there's some things that, hey, you know I trusted how you handled when things didn't go well. So now you know when things are good, I trust you even the more. Or the next time I'm unsure, right, I know that this, it tells a lot about the quality of a leader. Right, when you can fail and be and own your failure. That this was a decision that I made. It impacted you, but I can promise you now that it won't happen again. Right, that it won't happen like that again. Right, that brings people together.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and it shows our humanity.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Absolutely.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Of owning that too and helping other people own theirs Right.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:And this part, dr Mabson a lot of times when we fail, nobody knows we failed, but us. They don't know the difference. Like I tell my team all the time, especially the media team, that I'm like if the shot doesn't go well, you do know, nobody knows it didn't go the way you planned, except you. So y'all recalibrate as a team and do it over that. Sometimes we're worried about things that really are not significant. That true, yeah, the problem is not failing. It's it's if you decide that you fail and you stay there, right, right, you rebound, try, try it again, recalibrate, do it again a different way, take inventory of where you went wrong and then get back in there. This is a long journey. Yes, it is. It is that the moments matter, but the moments don't make the whole journey, if that makes any sense, right, yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:I grew up playing the piano and a teacher told me you know you make a mistake. You know, don't make such a big deal about it, because probably nobody else knows, right.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Just keep playing, keep on playing, keep playing, right yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, this is thank you. This has been a rich conversation for me, for our listeners. Thank you, this has been a rich conversation for me, for our listeners.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Thank you.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And appreciate so much who you are, what you do. We didn't even get to talk about Hampton.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Oh yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:You know position secretary.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yes, this year I'm the secretary.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Congratulations and what all that means. Hampton, one of the I mean not one of the, but the premier conference for the black church in America for years. And some of the bright lights come and present, preach and lecture.
Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown:Yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And yeah, that's. I remember just when one session was over, I couldn't wait until the next year. Right, right, that was just a given, you know going to Hampton, but anyway, thank you, dr Danielle Brown, thank you, dr Mabson, and if today's conversation has helped you in your ministry, please be sure to subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss an episode, and stay connected with us on social media at Ministry Forward for more insights and tools and encouragement between episodes. God bless you and thank you for listening.
