The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson is where real conversations meet real ministry. We tackle the hard questions facing today’s Black Church—from leadership and discipleship to cultural shifts and spiritual relevance. Hosted by Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr., this channel is a space for pastors, ministry leaders, and believers who are ready to reflect, wrestle, and reimagine what church can look like in today’s world.
New episodes drop every other Wednesday with honest insights, thoughtful dialogue, and wisdom from decades of ministry.
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The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson
Ep 05: Fruit That Remains: A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.
What does it mean to lead with vision, grace, and grit—while staying rooted in both tradition and innovation? In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr. joins Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. for a rich conversation about legacy leadership, spiritual discernment, and building ministry that lasts.
From growing up in South Jersey and playing piano in church at age nine, to leading Community Baptist Church of Englewood for over 30 years, Dr. Taylor’s story is marked by discipline, clarity, and Spirit-led conviction. He shares how a pivotal moment in his calling led him to prioritize preaching while remaining deeply connected to music ministry—using both gifts to shape a worship culture that reaches across generations.
This episode also explores the unprecedented 1996 merger between a Baptist and Holiness congregation, and how worship design, denominational leadership, and theological formation have shaped Dr. Taylor’s impact over time. Influenced by preaching giants like A. Lewis Patterson and Bishop G.E. Patterson, he now mentors the next generation as both a pastor and professor.
Listeners will gain insight into:
- How to lead one congregation through decades of growth and change
- What it takes to blend tradition and innovation in worship
- The wisdom behind denominational engagement—and where it falls short
- How to embrace change as part of God’s growth process
- What lasting fruit looks like in ministry today
Whether you’re pastoring a growing church, navigating generational shifts, or seeking clarity in your call, this episode offers both practical wisdom and spiritual encouragement for leaders who want to build something that remains.
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Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this another episode of the Ministry Exchange. This is a podcast that is designed to help equip ministers, to equip the saints, and hopefully these conversations that we have will give some insights into the changing landscape of ministry and the church. So, whether you're a seasoned pastor or a new pastor, or a church leader, this space is for you. I am delighted today to welcome to this podcast not just a colleague but a friend of many years. The Reverend Dr Lester W Taylor Jr is the pastor of the Community Baptist Church in Englewood, new Jersey, where he has served for 32 years and has led the congregation in terms of growth and influence, from a congregation of 300 to one of over 5,000, and has led them into building a state-of-the-art facility in 2011. And I've had the privilege of watching from a distance his growth in terms of influence as a leader and the growth of Community Baptist Church, and you've privileged me with the opportunity for preaching in community on several occasions.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Dr Taylor holds degrees from Philadelphia College of the Bible, which is now Karn University, also from New York Theological Seminary and from Palmer Theological Seminary, york Theological Seminary and from Palmer Theological Seminary. He's the former president of the General Baptist Convention of New Jersey and also a former moderator of the North Jersey Baptist Association, which is the association in which I was ordained 56 years ago Wow, 56 years ago and the association that my father was moderator of. I guess it would have been in the late 1970s. Also, he is a skilled musician and it's interesting that the guests that we've had so far, including Dr Waller and Bishop Thomas, were also Really yes, I never knew that. What about Thomas? Yeah, we used to Really Down at his church play together, play the organ and, yeah, we could get through some hymns at least.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Connection between pulpit and choir, stand, music and ministry and what that means, especially in the life of the black church. So again, welcome, dr Taylor. We're delighted to have you. You are from South Jersey, yes, and you now pastor for 30-some years in North Jersey. My experience has been that there's almost two different states. Yes, sir, right, north Jersey is unique and connected more to New York. Exactly, south Jersey is unique and connected more to Philadelphia. Yes, right, and believe it or not, I learned more about South Jersey once I came to Philadelphia, sure, than I did when I was living in North Jersey. There's a dynamic there, even politically. There's been this tension for years between political needs of North Jersey and South Jersey. Could you just begin by talking about your beginnings in ministry music first and then in ministry and how it came about that you became pastor of community in the northern part of the state?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Well, first of all, I am just delighted to be here. When you introduced me, you used the words colleague and friend, and I'm still in the placement of mentor mentee, because for years you know young preachers. We've just looked up to you. Your father I had the privilege of knowing. Your father, had the privilege of sitting in on classes that he taught in our convention, in our association, so you know, that was just a blessing, knowing your father and your mother as well as you, and so I'm honored to even be on the same stage as you at any time. We shared a few months ago at St John's Baptist Church in Camden you, bishop Keith Reed and myself, and when I sat there I said to myself I'm sitting with two people that I've admired as mentors for my entire ministry, so I appreciate this opportunity.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I am from South Jersey. I am from a place called Bridgeton, new Jersey, where I was born and raised. My parents were Floridians and migrated to New Jersey over the years to do migrant work, and my mother and her sisters decided to stay and make a home. My father also followed her up to New Jersey. They weren't married at that time but got married in the 60s and, of course, I came along and we started attending a church in the neighborhood. The first church that she attended was Union Baptist Temple. That was, I suppose, the church that everybody went to. And then she moved across town and joined a church called St Philip's Baptist Church, which is where I grew up. It was there that my mother was involved and we had a musician there, as we used to call him, a piano player. Her name was Mae Holmes and you may remember her because she used to be the pianist for Evergreen Baptist Church in Palmyra with Reverend Guy Campbell, and all the time before moving into this last building she was with him for over 20, almost 30 years. But before she went to Evergreen she was in Bridgeton and she was at my home church.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:She was my musical influence and from a kid I just gravitated towards the piano and, as small children do, I would pretend and mimic I was playing the piano and my mother and father paid attention to that. And when I was four years old they bought a piano for my birthday, a full-size Whitney piano, and of course I just started banging here and there, but I somehow caught on. I learned how to play pretty much by ear at first and then, once there was some development. My mother started me with some piano lessons. So I took lessons for about I think four or five years, learning how to sight read.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I read a little bit and I'm not fluent, but if I open a hymn book I can figure it out and get through the hymn Right. But my issue was I had such a sharp ear until my music teachers didn't realize I was memorizing what they were teaching me and so I went through several books, all by memory. But the church was the basics for which I started, you know kind of playing the piano. When I was nine years old I landed my first job by playing for a senior choir at New Hope Baptist Church in Cedarville and I played for them first and third Sundays. They sang hymns only out of the green hymnal. You remember that.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Oh yeah, the Baptist Standard, baptist Standard, that was like the Bible.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Yes, it is. And I learned every verse because they sang every verse and they only sang hymns. So that's how I learned, got the foundation of hymns in terms of music, and then, by the age of 12, my skills had developed so much so until my home church, st Philip's, they asked my mother if I could play the second and fourth Sundays. So I was fully engaged every Sunday by the age of 12. My salary I started out with a whopping $6 a week and then ended up with $35 as the church piano player, and I stayed at St Philip's until I graduated high school, which is in 1979. And then from there I went to Dallas, initially to college. I ended up playing for a church there called Faithful Missionary Baptist Church. I was there for two years for a church there called Faithful Missionary Baptist Church. I was there for two years and then, once I transferred from Dallas to Philadelphia College of the Bible, I started serving as the minister of music at Union Baptist Temple with Dr MM Peace.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Right, I was going to say MM Peace Jr is the son of my predecessor, monumental, and when MM Peace Jr passed away a couple years ago, he was funeralized from Monumental. Yes, and you did the eulogy. A masterful job, by the way.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Another humbling privilege because when Pastor Peace came to Bridgeton with that huge voice of his oh, what a voice, yeah. And then there a voice, yeah. And then you know, there was a radio ministry. He started the radio ministry and that was the day of radio ministry for all the people who remember listening to the radio, for getting the evening services, and so great influence in my life Musically. Ms Ernestine Eadie was the musician there and Ms Eadie used to play for Mars Chapel here in Philadelphia back under Hinton days. And so there's this history, philadelphia history that journeys with us, influenced by people like Dr Charles Walker, who was also extraordinary oh, yes, yes, piano player and preacher. But that's pretty much how I started in terms of music. Spent some time with Bishop Freddie Washington in the workshops, philadelphia Mass Choir when they prepared for their first album, wanda Riddick Taylor, who was then the music minister of music at Nazarene Baptist Church in Camden, music at Nazarene Baptist Church in Camden. These are all musical influences and so many others that really influenced me musically in terms of the gospel tradition and then in terms of ministry.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I gave my life to Christ when I was a teenager, at the age of about 14. I remember I've always been in the church, but I remember consciously accepting Christ as my Savior At the age of 14, as a result of a Bible study called Operation Salvation Tom Skinner I don't know if you remember that name, yes, I do Campus Crusade, and through that kind of ministry I came to know Christ as my Lord and Savior, continued to study in His Word and as a teenager I felt the urge, as the old preacher calls it to preach the gospel and I shared that with my pastor at that time, reverend W N Hargrove, who was the pastor at St Philip's. And you know, in those days there was no training, no development. I told him I thought the Lord was calling me to preach and he said go, pray. And so I went and prayed and it took a while.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:He told me to pray for about six months to a year and after that he said well, what do you think? I said I still feel called. And so he set a date and january 1977, I preached my initial sermon, matthew 7, uh 28, I believe, the last verses. That says he that hears these sayings in mind and does them. I will compare him to a man who built the house, laid a foundation and when the storm came and the wind blew. The house was able to stand because it was on a foundation Right and the title of my first message I've never preached it since was Get a Piece of the Rock. You remember the?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Prudential commercial, yes, yes, that was my title. Prudential Prudential, yes, and so that was in 1977. It's prudential Prudential, yes, and so that was in 1977, and I continued to develop. And one of the sisters in our church said to me upon graduating high school if you're going to engage full-time ministry in these days, you have to prepare yourself, and that put me on a path of academic preparation for ministry, and that's how I ended up at the Bible colleges. Martin Hawkins, who's now in Dallas, texas, who served with Tony Evans at the Oakley Bible Fellowship, is from New Jersey, south Jersey at that, and he was attending Dallas Theological Seminary. They had a Bible college and he told me about this Bible college and I applied there along with other schools. He brought me my reference, my recommendation, and that's how I ended up in Dallas in the first place for the Bible college. So my journey has been a blessing.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Coming back to Union under Dr Peace gave me an opportunity to develop my skills as a preacher, slash teacher, and even though I served as minister of music, I was engaged with teaching Bible study Right Sunday school, new members, orientation, all the teaching ministries, and so that helped me in terms of my appreciation for gospel music that had a biblical foundation Right, because I was able to marry the scripture with lyrics and that, to me, it made the difference. And so, as I continued to preach and share, you know, god began to open doors for me. And I really didn't have pastoring on my radar, but I am one that can testify that God's ways are not our ways. His thoughts are not our thoughts. I was full time minister music at the church and I went to visit Miss Edie, who was a former musician who was ill. She was actually here in Philadelphia at, I think, the Jefferson Hospital, and I went to visit her. I'm sorry, she was in Camden at Cooper and I think that's the day she probably received news of her terminal condition think that's the day she probably received news of her terminal condition. So we talked a minute but then she said something to me that I think allowed me to reposition myself so that I can now be open to whatever God was going to do in a different kind of way. So while visiting Mrs Edie, she said you are a phenomenal musician and you got that way by practicing your gift. She said you are a good preacher, but you'll become a better preacher if you spend some time practicing that gift. She said I know the pastor will not appreciate me telling you this she said but you need to take some time away from your music and dedicate it to your preaching. And she said if I were you, she said you can do what you want. I would spend two Sundays playing and I would open up two Sundays just for preaching. And that's what I did, with no way to preach, with no engagements on the books. But as soon as I did that, I watched the Lord fill up every vacant Sunday and then, within a year, this church starts expressing interest. It was interesting. This church starts expressing interest. It was interesting.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Community Baptist Church of Inglewood had some members who retired back to Bridgeton. The wife was from Bridgeton and Union Baptist was her home church. She often talked about her church, community, community, community. And so you know how we exchanged fellowships back in those days. Community came to union one year and then the following year union went to community.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And while there I'm serving as the church organist, the pastor who has been there some time he's contemplating retirement and while there he's and I'm sharing with this because I've had a chance to talk to him many times afterwards he shared this with me while I'm on the organ. He says the holy spirit spoke to him and said bring that young man up to preach. He's a preacher. And he, uh, spoke to the couple in my church. Their names were the Hannibals. He said tell that young man, I want him to come up and preach and he can choose any Sunday. He wants no special occasion, I just want him to come preach.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And so we did. And I went up to preach and while sitting in the back he said son, are you interested in pastoring a church? And I said, oh, no, no, because my mother used to be the president of the pastor's aid club and I remember all the grief she used to get for trying to do something for the pastor's family, so I didn't want to have anything to do with all that. And he said, okay, pastor's family, so I didn't want to have anything to do with all that. And he said, okay, I preached that Sunday. This was April. I preached. The message went back home. June, he retired. He retired and he left my name and he said to the church and the leaders I cannot choose for you, but if I could, there's a young man in South Jersey, his last name is Taylor. He has the spirit and the gift that this church needs.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And he left.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:That was June. I get a call in July Our pastor's gone. We're looking for a pastor. And I said, well, I'll be praying for you all. And they said, well, will you come up and preach Youth Day for us? And I was young. I said, okay, yeah, I'll do that. And I went up to preach on the fifth Sunday of August and that's all I did. I gave my sermon, got in my car and I left.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And around October they called again. This time they said Minister Taylor, when even ordained, the church is asking for you. I said to Deacon Lewis. I said, deacon Lewis, I don't want to be anybody's pastor, he says, but you need to pray about it. And I said, okay, I'll come preach. I said when do you have it available? He said the only time I have available is the second Sunday in November.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Well, second Sunday in November was my music workshop day. That whole week I had had a great workshop at the church. You know, in those days we were still doing these huge workshops. Guests Carol Antrim, freddie Washington, david Allen from Winston-Salem, north Carolina I mean guests all lined up for the week, charles Liles from Atlantic City. And I'm saying to myself I can't miss this. This is my big music workshop and I'm getting ready to tell him this. And the Holy Spirit speaks to me with the phone in my hand and tells me and that's clear as day choose between your music and your preaching, and whatever you choose is going to be your destiny. And in that moment I said I'll be there on the second Sunday and this is the beginning of the rest of the story Went to preach, I came home, got out of church, got back late. The service started without me. Got back late, service started without me. And the Lord pretty much says this is your past. Long story short, he left in June.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:I was called nine months later, in March, to be the fifth pastor of that church, and it seems the challenge is always with the music for us, for pastors, ministers, what to do with that in terms of the call to preach and how to maybe not choose between the two, but which becomes the priority. And for you, if that had not happened?
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:we probably wouldn't be sitting here. We wouldn't be sitting here today and maybe the community Baptist Church as we know it now would not be. And I say that because it is God who places leaders in places to do certain things that would not have been done without that specific leader and the kind of ministry that has been shaped, a very strong ministry and community has become one of the leading churches, not only in the state, but I would say even beyond. What's interesting is the merger yes, if you can talk about that, because another congregation merged with yours and those of us who are Baptists, black Baptists in particular, we multiply through division, right, by splitting, right, yes, yeah, but talk about that. And what made it work? Especially not another Baptist church, right?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:right. Well, the good old Baptist split is how community was birthed yeah, 1932, split from the First Baptist Church of Engglewood, but survived all of that and First Baptist is still doing well too as well. When I arrived at Community Baptist Church I had a strong teaching background. You know, I love preaching, I love our style of preaching, but I also like the teaching ministry, and so I asked my church secretary at that time who in this area is known for strong Bible teaching, and she said to me there's only one name in this area where people go to for Bible study in terms of pastor, and that's Reverend Dorothy Neal.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Reverend Dorothy Neal pastored a small holiness church called Back to the Bible, independent Holiness Church. She had about 50 strong members. Small church but strong. So I met her. Actually, as a result of her brother's passing, funeral was held and I went past and introduced myself to her. I took that opportunity to to introduce myself to her in that fashion, and we subsequently connected and start talking about the teaching ministry.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I found out that Reverend Neal was a Pentecostal preacher but had a conservative approach to scriptures. A Pentecostal preacher who believed in eternal security. You know the thing, the tenets of our faith Right, and so we, the Lord, kind of brought us together to do a lot of work in teaching together, so much so that we began to broach the conversation emerging, because she initiated it. She said, reverend, it was never my desire to pastor. She said I had a Bible study. These people came to Christ. They didn't have a pastor and this was thrust upon me as a result of it. We tried to find a place and things like that. She said but I prefer to just teach God's word. And she said I don't know what we can do about that. She said but it's not my desire to pastor. And so we began to talk about what merging would look like. She had a property down the street from Community Baptist Church and we ended up assuming that property. She shared with her congregation her desire and that for these years that she served as their pastor, she could never baptize them because they didn't have the pastor. She could never baptize them because they didn't have the facility. She could only teach the word and nurture them. Members had never been baptized, all of this. So once we agreed on the merger I shared with my congregation. I spoke to our leaders, you know, because we are a Baptist church and I had to talk to my deacons, my trustees and the congregation about the merger. We agreed that once we merged, those who served as deacons in her church would become deacons in ours and they would pretty much emerge. It would just be a merger. And she would become my director of Christian education and she would spearhead all the Bible studies and give structure and form to that. And we did merge.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:One Sunday she came, brought all of her folks at our I think it was our 930 service. I don't know which service it was. I think it was our 930 service. I don't know which service it was, but on this particular Sunday she and all of her members came to church, took up one section of our then smaller church and when I preached the sermon and opened the doors of the church, they all stood up. They all stood up, they all stood, they all came in and we had to have a separate baptismal service just to baptize them all. Yeah, and it has worked.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And they had to have felt—your church had to have been welcoming for that to happen too, because it's not just the leadership. Yes, I've known of potential mergers where the pastors wanted the merger but the congregations didn't own it. Right right congregation and she preparing her people for this so that they would not come in feeling as outsiders. They came in feeling as a part of that. So that's to your credit that it was done that way and so smoothly. That is something that's rare and again, especially for a church that's not a Baptist church, you know, holiness church, there's been a traditional, historic, what, if not hostility, at least a feeling that you know y'all are not doing this right, Exactly, we are.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:So that is amazing, and you know, it didn't come without having to put out some fires, and I mean in our own church, in terms of people who question that well, we're Baptists and they're Pentecostal, and so we had to really move towards the fact that we're all Christians, we're believers, and I think what helped is when they merged with us, they immediately submitted to the leadership of this pastor. There has never been a request for her to preach a funeral and whenever there's a problem she would always say to them he is our pastor now, and so she never, ever, stepped in that role under any circumstances. So I have married those who come, younger people, I have buried all who have passed away. She has attended funerals, never once preached a funeral period, under no circumstances. So she has literally turned the reins over and it's been a blessed over the years, a blessed connection, a blessed fellowship. She brought good workers, tithers submissive to leadership, and that's how that worked.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, on another level, that's a model for struggling churches, the smallest struggling churches today. You know, with the decline in institutional loyalty, the pandemic that exacerbated the decline but didn't cause it right. A great model for churches that can do that, if they can, I don't know. Just I'm hopeful somebody will do some writing on how that happens, somebody will do some writing on how that happens, as well as writing more writing on transition, pastoral transition. That's coming more and more in our churches. It didn't used to be where you stayed in the pulpit until death.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And sometimes had to yes, yes, we understand that. Yeah, because of finances. Yes, and sometimes had to yes, yes, we understand that. Yeah, because of finances. Yes, I think as our people began to work in places where they got benefits, they saw the value of providing that for their pastors. Yes, and that just works better.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Let me shift to you also have been one of our denominational leaders in the National Baptist Convention, which is in the news a little bit now. Yes, but we'll save that for another time. But you and I both have been, just, I think, extremely loyal to our traditional denominational bodies in ways that others have not. Over the years, there's been a great falling away from our state conventions with younger pastors who they don't want to be bothered, and in Philly, in other cities, with ministers' conferences and certainly the National Baptist Convention. The numbers are less than what the advertised numbers are, of course. Of course, yes, and just in terms of the other, venues have emerged that seem to be meeting more the needs of pastors today, especially younger pastors, but older pastors as well and the continuing relevance of the convention.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And how do we? We have we use in our church three R's reimagine, reset and renew and it seems hard to do that, and it seems like that's what's needed today. And so we are asked to justify our involvement in our own conventions, which were given to us by our people at a time when we were shut out of the rest of society and we needed each other and created our churches, our denominations, burial societies, schools, newspapers, insurance companies. Where do you see in terms of your own? You've done a great job, I think, in reimagining church and community is a testimony to that. Where do you see, without putting you on the spot, where do you see all of this going in terms of will we have a convention in the next generation?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I'll be candid in my response. To have a convention for convention's sake? No, we won't. Yeah, we won't, because there's too much competition.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Yes yes, and the competition is not bad. I mean, let me first answer why am I loyal? Why have I been loyal? Peter is always my example. When Jesus says to Peter, satan has desired to have you and sift you as wheat and I prayed for you that your faith failed not. And when you are converted, when you come back, strengthen the brothers or the other one to whom much is given, much is required. I think that and I know that God has blessed me and my foundation has been through the associations, through the general Baptist convention.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I've grown as a result of attending the national Baptist Congress, sitting in class with Dr Samuel B McKinney, emmanuel Scott, listening to people like A Lewis Patterson, cesar Clark and Dr EB Hill Late night service. You know, in those days you just knew who was going to be preaching. It was either A Lewis Patterson, cesar Clark or whatever. You never got tired of hearing those voices, right, but sitting in the class at the Congress really gave me a great foundation. Now I understand that other conferences they've emerged and they're doing great work and I've been to IC3. We were out West, right, the preaching conference, ak Bailey. Been to IC3, we were out west the preaching conference, ak Bailey, for the preachers and other conferences that are there, and those conferences are not going anywhere because they seem to have tapped into a heartfelt need, and, when we study church growth and development, the idea of speaking to the need in order to do ministry that matters.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I don't think that our convention leaders have always had the need of the people in mind in terms of overall programming. Yeah, maintenance and ministry are two different things. Maintenance and ministry are two different things, and what I mean by that? If we're just trying to maintain the convention without meeting the ministry needs of the constituents, then you know the constituents are going to go where they can be fed, where their needs can be met, and ie the young preacher, or even the older preacher now, who is trying to recover from post-COVID experiences.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:The reason why I still go, though, is because I believe that, first of all, the convention is comprised of many of the churches who are not like Community Baptist Church. Right right, they're small churches People don't have the opportunities to, a lot of pastors are not full time, they're bivocational, and for many, the convention is their only option. Right yeah, the Congress is their only conference that they will ever attend, and so I personally feel it my responsibility to participate and to share with others what I know, and so I look at my loyalty. I'm not loyal because of what I'm getting. I'm loyal because of what I'm in position to give now.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Right. This episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner, terry Funeral Home. Incorporated For over 85 years, they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion and consistency. Under the leadership of Gregory T Burrell, terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name, offering guidance and support when it's needed the most, when it's needed the most. So, whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss, terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity, clarity and compassion when families need it the most. To find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence, visit terryfuneralhomecom and thank you. And connections are still important. We learned that from COVID, I think, and even as we try to urge people after COVID to come back to church come back to church scolding almost in due time I think there are people who said I need, I miss that and I need it. And there's always going to be the virtual Always.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And thank.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:God for that.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Yes.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:But there's also going to be that need for the connection to be a part of the body and the social needs of people to be in that same space, which I agree with, even with the convention. And for me, it was bequeathed to us by the ancestors and again, that's not enough of a reason, I guess, for some. But are we going to let it die because of that need? They said we need each other and we can do more, even in terms of education and missions, if we pool our resources. And so that gave us the Sunday School BTU board. We had our own publishing company, black People yes, right. I had our own publishing company, black People yes Right, and helped to finance black colleges and all of that. And it just it seems to me that I can't deny what was left for us. Yeah, and it has meant so much to me over the years.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:You know, I think it's like anything. It's like the house people grew up in. It means something to the people who were up in the house. Yeah, but you know, our grandchildren and our children, you know, doesn't mean as much to them and so they don't have the affinity towards it that we may have Right and that's not right or wrong. It's just as a matter of each generation, even biblically speaking. There becomes a generation that knows not Moses or knows not Joseph, all the names that were once held in high esteem. They're getting further and further away. But I still believe in the idea of a remnant and I think that there will always be someone left to point us back to the foundation and I think leadership is important, because leadership has to be connected to the need, Because even in churches, what is it?
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:people, it's not just the institution or the history. Is the church meeting the need and is the sermon meeting? There was a book I had years ago Meeting the Needs of People. I forget the author, but that's what Jesus did, yes yes yes.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:You're kind of tap dancing all in my sermon for the night. Oh, really, smiling yeah, I'm like okay, yeah.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, if you had to I mean looking back over ministry and could speak to younger pastors in particular. We say you know Jesus Christ is saying today, what is it Yesterday, today and forever does not mean that the way Christ is presented, the way we do, ministry doesn't change Right Because it changed in Jesus. It changed in the early church and throughout the church has always, I think, been able to adapt, yes, adapt to, not to be defined by the culture, but adapt to cultural changes for the generation you know, to serve this present age right, without disconnecting from the tradition. And I notice, even in your preaching, your music. You're a director too, director of sync. You can sing, direct and play with the choir. Yes, remember the choir you organized for North Jersey.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Yes, yes, yes.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:There's like what? 150 of them? Yes, yeah, but even with the music it's a reflection of multi-generations, like preaching has to be right. So the hymns, the anthem or anthem-like music, but also the gospel, traditional gospel, contemporary gospel but letting each generation appreciate the music of another generation. And you do that in your—talk about worship, because I've been at community, preached there, in a worship setting that for me was empowering because it was not purposefully entertaining, it was not entertaining and everything led to an appreciation of the word. You know, then it was up to me to not disappoint, but still everything was like the sermon wasn't a byproduct or a footnote. Now, for me that's intentional, very intentional. And how? Your theology of worship? An intentional piece of whatcentered focus, a biblical focus is important and understanding.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:For example, when we visit a church I always say to my musicians I always say to my musicians read the pews, who's in the audience. If most of the people sitting in the pews are 50 and older, if you know anything about church life and culture, you know they have an appreciation for gospel standards, hymns, things like that. If most of the people in the congregation 40 and under, you know that's an appreciation for more of the contemporary sound. If you have a mixture of all, there needs to be somewhat like a smorgasbord, something there for everybody. Community Baptist Church was a traditional Baptist church. When I got there Traditional, almost Pentecostal type the women couldn't wear pants, they had to wear dresses inside. If they came from work they rolled up their pants and put on a skirt. Before they went into the sanctuary they wore doilies on their head like Pentecostal women. I mean it was that type of church and Reverend Kenner, south Carolinian Aiken area, so he had that old Southern kind of feel and the church was pretty much like that.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:But as the church began to change and grow in terms of the influx of younger people I think because of my upbringing, who the hymns were embedded in me I could still hold on to that as well as bring in the other pieces.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:So much so that when I think about how to structure a service and I got this because I served as minister of music for different pastors and I learned as the minister of music to keep my eye on the pastor, to know the movement of the worship experience, to know what's next, to know what's needed to marry the appropriate music with the appropriate function.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:If there's prayer, something that supports prayer, if it's scripture and a response, something that supports the response to scripture, if it's a mnemonic selection and I know something that supports the response to Scripture, if it's a mnemonic selection and I know the theme that perhaps the pastor is going to preach, to make sure that my selection of music complements the text that the pastor is going to preach.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:That's all very much intentional, and so I bring that to my own ministry by sharing my thematic approach, my scriptural theme, with my music ministry so that they can also select the appropriate songs to support the theme of the day. We make sure we have a hymn, because I got people in my church. I have about a huge population of what I call seniors and that's 65 and older almost 300 to 400 of them and so they love the hymns and we're going to do that for them. Right, and all in between and we make sure you've been there we make sure that we have appropriate singing throughout the entire worship experience, have appropriate singing throughout the entire worship experience, and I think that's so important in terms of developing a worship experience that includes everything and everyone.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, and the work of the Spirit is disciplined. Yes, again, because that's what I saw there. Yes, again, because that's what I saw there a disciplined worship service, but free, uninhibited, but within the boundaries of what I call appropriate for the worship of God. Yes, which is the holiness of God for me is still something we don't talk about. Yes, very much. And what does God deserve from us?
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:But a lot of that, I guess, again, from your musical background and, like you said, studying preachers, studying worship. What do you see as needed? Because then that becomes what you didn't know at the time a model for worship ministry in your congregation. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Let me ask you who are the models? If, if you had to pick models in ministry and you, you've named a couple, I suppose. But, um, our generation, I mean you're, you're much younger than I am, but still I think some of our the models would be the same, but just just what? Who were some of the models would be the same, but just what? Who were some of the models when you look back and you hear some of them in you?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:My earliest memory I was certainly influenced by the preaching style of Charles Walker. Yes, 19th Street Baptist Church, Philadelphia. He was a masterful preacher, didn't use a manuscript, you know Very smooth, very smooth, very smooth. Of course I'm nowhere near it, but I love that discipline. He was one A. Louis Patterson was another, from the convention.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes, but I also— Well, we heard some of the giants at Hampton from the convention. Yes, but I also— Well, we heard some of the giants at Hampton. Oh, yes, yes. And Louis.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Patterson was one of them. Yeah, the preachers at Hampton. You know, I always reference the sermon you preach strange fire in Ogden Hall. That was my first year ever going to Hampton, is that? So? Oh, that was my first time there, wow, and we were walking over to Ogden Hall. I didn't know where we were going and it was hot that day, like it is outside, and then we got in there and it was just hot up in there, but that was probably one of the most powerful sermons and experiences I've ever had that day and I still reference it.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Also, I'm influenced, in terms of preaching, by Bishop GE Patterson. Yes, oh, yes, I still listen to his sermons and listen to because he is. He's a preacher's preacher, yeah, absolutely, and he, for, as a Kojic preacher, he is still. He's a universal man. He's Baptist, yes, yes, in terms of that style of preaching, yes, he's a great, great preacher. But I also I listen to others who may not hold to the Baptist style in terms of the development and the hooping and the closing, because the content is good. And so, you know, you have new people who are preaching today and I listen to them because they are reaching a generation that I need to reach, yes, yes. And so you have the people like Darius Daniels, who used to pastor right here in Friendship Baptist Church in Trenton. You know, years ago he followed Saunders Willie J, saunders Willie J, yes, get out of here. Yes, he did, oh, yes, he did. His name is what, darius Daniels the.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Change Church. He has a church in Jersey, a church in Atlanta Is that so Amazing young man? And he's, you know, he's doing his thing, but you know he preaches on all platforms, but he'll let you know. He's Baptist, you know, but he's you know, sneakers and the whole contemporary feel. But I listened to him because I learned from him how to reach another generation. Learn from him how to reach another generation.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:When we tore down our building and went to the theater, I found myself struggling with preaching because I was in a much larger venue and I didn't know how to navigate that space. So I started watching people on television who were preaching in large spaces so that I could pick up some tips, and the person that I really picked up a lot of tips from was Joel Osteen. Now, joel Osteen doesn't go on record in our tradition as being such a great preacher, right right. But he's speaking to thousands of people every week. So I said, if he's speaking to thousands of people, I need to watch him and pick up some things. Right, of thousands of people, I need to watch him and pick up some things.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And I noticed that, joel, he uses a manuscript, but he takes a few steps away from the podium to the right and then back to the center and then to the left, and that movement to the right and to the left gives the appearance that he's focused on this side of the congregation and back to the center, and then he's focused over here. And I actually started doing that when we were in the theater, because the theater was long and once I started just some movement, I felt that I was connecting again to the entire group. So he's influenced me in terms of how to connect with a large space, because in this day and age you don't know where you're going to be in terms of preaching and teaching, right.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:And it's a different feeling being in a large, a massive space than in a smaller space. Yes, yes.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Yes, yes, yes, and I you know names like Ralph West, who's both a great expositor he can do it all. Yeah, you know Ralph West is a great, great preacher. You know I've listened to Keith Reed, I've been influenced by him over the years. Alan Wallace, Some of the in my opinion, Philadelphia has had some of the most awesome preachers period. And now that I'm in the New York area, you know being able to not only listen to but be influenced by. You know the late Calvin Butts, oh, yes, who. Different style altogether, Altogether, yeah, but still impactful, influential, and the whole New York feel is different.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah, Just imagine, as you know, being in New York and you have Sam Proctor at Abyssinia. You have Gardner C Taylor in Brooklyn. At Concord, you have William Augustus Jones, william Augustus Jones, bethany At Bethany. Sandy Ray Sandy Ray at Cornerstone. William A Laws yes, I've heard that name Laws At Mount Lebanon in Brooklyn, I mean that's. I used to take parts of August off when I was pastoring in Elizabeth and I would go to Brooklyn during August to hear the Giants and most of them took August on vacation. Bill Jones was always in his pulpit in August and I'd go sit in the balcony in Bethany and just listen. He had just come back from Australia that Sunday so he preached. His sermon subject was no worries mate, because that's an expression no worries mate. But yeah, that triggers the. You know, someone said that when we preach, you know there are other preachers, mentors, who are standing with us. Bill.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Jones helped me. I had to preach at a place, at a white church in our area a prominent white church, hawthorne Gospel Church and they asked me to preach all three of their morning services and their night service and, unlike our tradition, they wanted to know my sermon title scripture six months in advance. Most of us don't know what we're preaching six days in advance, right, right that we had to submit that and I had to submit them an array of sermons and scriptures and they chose the sermon title and scripture they wanted preached in those particular services. So it was what it was. I still had to develop the sermons and I was anxious about how I was going to develop my sermon for this congregation.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:And I heard Bill Jones. He was the keynote speaker for Calvin McKinney's 25th pastor or church one of those anniversaries and I just happened to be there and he said something that I said is just for me and he talked about the ability to pass to black people and preach to black people and those kind of things. But this is what he said and it helped me. He said you know, when you preach to white folks, you got to touch their minds before they allow you to touch their hearts. But when you're preaching to black folks, you got to touch their hearts first before they allow you to touch their minds. That alone gave me what I needed to prepare the sermon for my other assignment, right. So I knew that my opening I had to open my sermon by being heavily scholastic and deep and dealing with some academic kinds of things before I just went on to the preaching moment.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Right, and it worked. Yeah, it really worked. Preaching moment Right, and it worked. Yeah, it really worked. I also heard Dr Jones preaching when Clayburn Lee was installed as a pastor and he said something. He said listen. He said when Saturday comes, rest your body, even if your sermon is not prepared. Rest your body, because if you wake up in the morning and give God a rested body and a rested mind, he can do more with that. Yeah, so that's always been helpful.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes, the fuels of wisdom we pick up along the way, yeah, and pass it on too. Yes, yes, you have associate ministers in the church. I'm sure that they're uh, feeding from you and you from your, feeding from your mentors, and it just, yes, that's god's, god's work. Yes, through generations is there? Is there a moment in preaching that you felt went incredibly well, in a moment that you felt didn't go so well? I have mine, especially for not so well. Which ones?
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I think what people don't realize is, most of the time when we sit down, we sit down critiquing ourselves, yeah, and thinking about all the things we should have said but we didn't say.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:We said it, but didn't say it the way we wanted to say it, mm-hmm. You know, occasionally, far and few. In between, I think there are more mids and lows than there are highs. Of course, some days when we minister, when I preached, I sat down and I said, you know, surely the Lord was with me, yeah, in terms of the fact that I was either tired or didn't feel like I developed the sermon enough or well enough, and God just gave preaching power, not only power, but allowed the thoughts to connect and all those things to be in place. I both write manuscripts, but I also preach extemporaneously. I may preach with an outline. I do it all. It depends on what's going on and where we are. But yes, I've had those moments where I thank God for His grace. Then I had those moments where I asked the Lord to forgive me yeah, forgive me for this one, because this certainly was not the one. And when people said, you know, pastor, really that was a blessing, I said, okay, lord, forgive them too for lying. Oh, yes, we've been there and I like to share that with younger preachers because all of us are still becoming.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:I remember one year I had Charles Walker in my church in Revival and Ron Johnson. Remember Ron Johnson? Yes, yes, he had Walter Scott Thomas at his church in Revival at the same time. Yes, yes. And so we decided to go out to lunch together, whitfield, myself and Ron Johnson. Yeah, we got a limo and picked up Walker and Walter Scott.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:We all rode together to Freshwaters out in Plainfield and we were amazed to watch we call it the giants Walker and Walter. They were talking about how to prepare and when do you start working on your sermons for the next Sunday? And we're just young pastors just enjoying this sermon. And I never forget Walter Thomas says. He said when Sunday's over. And I never forget what Walter Thomas says. He said when Sunday's over. And the first thing the Lord gives him. That night he said the first thing the Lord gives me. I'll go with that. He said I just go with the first thing he gives me. And Reverend Walker said something else. But even though we were having lunch, and a good lunch, they both was like, you know, ok, yeah, we got to get back to the rooms because we got to work on these sermons and to hear them talk like that. We think that they are just giants in the ministry and yet they were still focused on the discipline of working on these sermons. That was that to us was, I think, so inspirational.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yeah.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:It was a blessing.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Oh well, this has been just a great conversation with you and again, friendship goes back and you have been very kind. You talk about my father and how kind you were to he and my mother before their passing and just value you and all that you have done, continue to do for the kingdom. You are also a model for me in terms of the progression and the influence of your ministry and the humility and sincerity about the calling of God, and so thank you very much. If today's conversation has been valuable to you. We ask that you would continue to watch these episodes of the ministry exchange and again we thank you for being with us and may the Lord continue to bless you and your ministry.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Again, I appreciate this moment, and you did ask a question about what would I say to younger preachers and pastors. I think I would just simply say to the young pastor today to remain faithful to the call not to chase after social media fads. Whatever God has for you, god can bring it to you. I've been blessed to be in one place for 32 years, still growing, and when I went there it wasn't the place that people thought I should be. Many people told me I should look to go somewhere else, even preachers. But if you are faithful and over the few that God gives you, god can increase you where you are and I would encourage every young pastor just to remain faithful. Learn, yes, develop yourself academically, but, more importantly, stay on your knees, be in prayer and hear God's voice.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:Yes, yes, and I would add, to be patient, yes, sir, you know it doesn't happen. In a day it does not. Or a year, yeah. And when the Lord calls you to a place, to go, willing to invest your life in that church, not going looking to go somewhere else, yes, yes, yeah, to remain faithful. I mean, there's a whole discussion we could have, which we can't but, about going into a church and understanding its culture, yes, and its history Right, and honoring that, while at the same time using that as a springboard to take the church where the Lord wants to lead it. But you know, understand that it was there when you got there, yes, and maybe there. And you know, you, if you're not in the hearts of people, you can't lead people.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:You've got to spend time building relationships and not using people to build your little kingdom.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Oh my God, oh yes, but that's a whole other discussion.
Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.:But it's true, yes, yes it is.
Rev. Dr. Lester W. Taylor Jr.:Thank you so much. Thank you, Dr Manchin. The Lord bless you. Thank you.
