Ep 06 - Leadership That Builds People: A Conversation with Bishop Keith W. Reed Sr.

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Bishop Keith W. Reed Sr. shares the powerful leadership principles that have sustained his 43-year pastorate at Sharon Baptist Church in Philadelphia.

With wisdom forged through decades of ministry, Bishop Reed recounts a pivotal shift in his leadership: choosing not to be a “one-man band,” but an orchestra conductor who empowers others to flourish. Drawing from Scripture and seasoned mentors like Dr. Willie Richardson and Dr. E.K. Bailey, he explains how staffing for his weaknesses—and trusting capable people—brought strength and longevity to his ministry.

This conversation explores:

• How expository preaching combats biblical illiteracy
• Why authentic, approachable leadership fosters healthy congregations
• Burnout prevention through delegation and self-awareness
• The role of friendship, rest, and reading in ministry sustainability
• What it means to “gather wheat from every man’s field, but make your own bread”

For pastors and leaders at every stage, Bishop Reed offers a masterclass in building people, protecting your soul, and leading with both conviction and humility.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to the Ministry Exchange
• 8:43 From One-Man Band to Orchestra
• 13:53 Sharing Ministry with Others
• 19:17 Managing Burnout in Ministry
• 32:05 Father and Son in Ministry
• 43:22 Expository Preaching and Biblical Literacy
• 51:18 Influences and Advice for Pastors

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this edition of the Ministry Exchange, which is designed to help equip pastors and ministers and leaders of the church to engage in authentic dialogue and conversation about the church, the contemporary church, as well as the church, the black church, of the past. We're living in some very challenging times for ministry and for the church, and it is my hope that each of you will benefit from these conversations that I've been privileged to have with some of our leading voices in our nation today. We are delighted today to welcome to our podcast Bishop Keith Reed Sr, who for 43 years, has been the pastor of the Sharon Baptist Church in Philadelphia, west Philadelphia. Yeah, we're neighbors. Yes, as they say, the West is best. Yes, but they say I won't say that. They do say that the West is best. And, doc, every time I think about the name Sharon, of course, I think about the legacy of black church prayer rituals and preaching rituals, and we grew up hearing the phrase Rose of Sharon, the Valley, in terms of the name being significant, rose of Sharon biblically and what it represents in terms of fertile ground and the presence of roses in the midst of that ground, and Sharon Baptist Church, under your leadership, has been a rose of Sharon in Philadelphia and beyond. And not only is Bishop Reed pastor of Sharon Baptist Church, which is one of the largest and most respected congregations in our nation, but he is presiding prelate of the Progressive Holistic Ministry of Churches, which offers mentorship to pastors and churches across the nation. He is also the founder of Sharon Bible Fellowship in Maryland and the visionary behind the Sharon Community Center. He's a respected preacher, teacher, global conference speaker, and is always willing to share his insights and leadership principles, as well as sharing himself with those who seek it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 3:00

And so, first of all, again, thank you for being here it's mine and for being what I consider a dear friend and brother, beloved. And we were just talking earlier about having preached together on a couple of occasions ministers, conference ministers, no, pastors, and pastors and ministers revival right in columbus, ohio yes, they had, I don't, they do, they still have, I think so. Simultaneous revival, yes, and you at one church, I was at another. Uh, dr waller was also in an outpouring for someone's own pastor and uh, we've had the chance to to be together for conferences earlier this year as Hamden, and just a wonderful relationship that we have shared throughout the years.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 4:19

What I want to talk about, begin with, is just in terms of your willingness to share ministry concerns and ministry insights with other pastors, because sometimes some don't want to share what they know and that's in the workplace as well out of some insecurities or whatever the reason but in terms of just your willingness to share what the Lord has given you to enhance the church of Jesus Christ. How did you come to valuing that and wanting to do that? Well, I think for me personally that when Sharon started to grow and I was a young man younger man at maybe 25, 26 years old, and I was seeking what's the next step, you know, I saw my predecessors before me when their churches grew, they became the cure-all everyone, meaning they became the lawyer, the doctor, the Indian chief or whatever. Their context, I think, had put them in that space. And then also, I think they themselves allowed their context to put them in that space where people didn't want nobody else to do anything but the pastor and it became a one-man band kind of thing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 5:59

And what changed me was it's an illustrative situation that walking down Center City one day and I saw this guy. He was playing the drums, he was blowing the harmonica, he was also having a trumpet and he was just beating away and sweating and doing what and people you know was putting money in. And I said, wow, that guy's multifaceted. I kept walking up Walnut Street, made a right on Broad Street and you know there is where they hold the symphonies and orchestras and the doors were open and I heard this music playing. So I tipped up the steps. I just walked in and I saw this guy with a wand in his hand and he pointed in one direction and a group of instruments came in. And then he pointed in another direction and a group of instruments came in and he went to making these melodious sounds of music.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:04

And I'm not a spooky guy, but I think I'm a realistic kind of person and I believe I heard the Spirit of God say to me what do you want to be a one-man band or do you want to conduct an orchestra? I said I want to be like that guy right there. I don't want to play all those instruments, I want to be able to vacillate from one instrument to another. I want to get people that are trained to do what they're doing or gifted to do what they're doing. Put them in places and spaces in the church and let them do it. I just conduct it. And so that is what kind of changed my whole mindset about that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:50

And then, biblically, when I went through Scripture, there was never a one person that did everything. I mean, moses' father-in-law told him hey, man, you're killing yourself. And then later on God told him hey, man, you're killing yourself. Yeah, right, you know. And then later on God told him get 70 elders meet me at the tender meetings. I'm going to give them your spirit and then they will help you carry out the tasks of what two million people or so that he needed to do and to conduct and lead. That he needed to do and to conduct and lead. So from those examples and it's replete in the Scripture that there never was a one person to do everything, even Jesus Christ, our Lord, he had 12 disciples. One time he had 70, then that went down to 12, you know, but it was always more than one person.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 8:47

That's the principle that I received from scripture and life and so, as a result of it, that's the way I passed it Right. And that's interesting because some of when I say some of us I mean some leaders, I mean we, we if we might get what we pray for and can't handle it Right, right early on in your ministry has guided your ministry because, as growth came about, we all can't handle and manage growth Absolutely and therefore we stifle it Absolutely, right, absolutely. But this way, what you're saying is you were not afraid of bringing into your orbit persons who could do other things, even if they could do them better than you, because that would be their assignment. That's right. I think of for 43 years 30-something years, when I started the staff concept at our church, I learned that from guys like Dr Willie Richardson, dr EK Bailey. They taught me that you staff your church according to your weaknesses. So what you are not capable or gifted to do, you find capable, competent, gifted people to do what you can't do and let them do it and it develops them. More takes that weight off of you, me as an individual, because, again, my predecessors, our predecessors, were one man man. I refuse to do that and I think to this day it has added years to my life. At this point in my ministry I don't feel burnt out, I don't feel wore out. I seen those guys build churches and after it was built, they would die because there was acts to do things that they wasn't gifted to do.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 11:04

I remember when we first if you don't mind me furthering this answer I remember when we first did our first building meeting, when we were moving to Conchahokan and this was in the building phases of it, and so we had people in the room, my trustees. Back then they were called stewards, my stewards and deacons, so they were discussing stuff like pipes, underground cross beams, hvvac systems, and they were so much into it. I was over there sitting at the table and I was saying in my mind somebody give me a gun, I'm ready to shoot myself, because this is no, I have no interest in this. I really, really don't. It was zapping me, doc, it was draining me. I was confused about what they were talking about because I knew nothing about those systems that they had to put in.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 12:10

So I went to that meeting, went to the second meeting and at that point my chairman he's gone on to be with the Lord now of our financial deacons ministry he said to me Pastor, isn't this exciting? I said for you it is. So I'll tell you what we're gonna do. We're gonna get people in our church that do these different systems whether it's carpentry, drywall, plumbing and we're gonna put them over the systems with the builder contractor and y'all report to me only when there's some major changes that need to be done. Other than that, I won't be at no more of these meetings.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 13:06

He looked at me. He said you really. I said, hey, man, give me a bible, give me the people, and I'll get the people to pay for what it is that he ain't ready to build and do. I said that's my strength, that's where I'm at. So if I don't do that, y'all won't have no money to build the building, won't have no ability to build the building because we don't have the resources. So let me do what I do, I'll let y'all do what y'all do, and then we'll get done with.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 13:34

The Lord says we ought to do, right, yeah, so I just, I never desired that kind of stuff, you're right, yeah, had no interest in it. Yeah, none desired that kind of stuff. You're right, yeah, I had no interest in it. Yeah, none whatsoever. Man, I leaned on my strengths, right, and that is what I think God honored, and I put other people in places where my weaknesses were Right In terms of the expectation, then of loyalty Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:02

Expectation, then, of loyalty Absolutely, if not, not persons who are just going to say yes, necessarily, but you know, like what we have in the White House, this kind of a model of you know, and because with that kind of model everything can go wrong, yes, but allowing people to express it Right, disagree but at the same time disagree, but ain't going to be a decision of loyal, right? I mean, you're not going to be disagreeable, right? You know so I do also. I don't just put it in their hands. I inspect what I expect, okay, so if I expect something, I'm going to inspect it. Right, you know, I trust, but I verify, you know those.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:49

I think those principles are necessary for for the ministry to go the way that it needs to go and for people to grow. And then the accountability is built into that. Oh my God, accountability to the leader, but the leader also accountable to God and to the church, people to the church, absolutely Always somebody, you know there's always checks and balances, and any leader that thinks that they have sole authority and no one can question it, no one can say nothing about it, no one can even bring something new to it. I think that's a leader setting herself up for disaster yes, absolutely For disaster, absolutely, yeah. So in terms of helping, then now other pastors do the same kind of process.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 15:51

You became, with Sharon, a model, kind of a model of how this is done, and I'm sure that there were pastors who came to you who were wanting to do something similar, who said now, can we pick your brain? And and now I don't know if you had that yourself, because if you were out there and among Baptists, in particular in this city, you were the first right. So as others come along and come to you and say, no, we want to do this, we want to build your ability to help, guide them and even to say for them to ask you if you had to do it over again, would you have done something different, different? Can you just talk about that in terms of leaders accepting responsibility for making a mistake, maybe, or something, and rather than trying to cover it up, just say and if I were you, I wouldn't do that. Yeah, I think a lot of us, too, only tell about the successes in ministry and for whatever reason we feel like that, we can divulge.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 17:29

Whatever reason we feel like that we can't divulge where we may have made mistakes or we may have made a bad decision. I just think that the way I was brought up was a term that they use today. I just want to keep it real, right, you know, I want to keep it real. Right, you know, I want to keep it real. Don't want people to think that what you see is exactly what it is and what it has been. No, I've come to the conclusion that if I do that to other preachers that come to me, I'm deceiving them, and if they take what I only share with them as far as successes are concerned, what's going to happen if they try it and it doesn't work? Mm-hmm.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 18:20

So I don't want to be labeled as giving false information, right, right, misinformation, you know, or even being deceptive, because the bottom line, dr Mapps, is what am I going to get out of that? Right, what is that going to? You know? Contribute to who I am, my legacy, or whatever. So I and I've even said that to our church many times Now listen, I'm not Jesus, I'm a son of God. He's my Savior, but he's the Savior, I'm just a resource that he uses to put forth his program.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 19:03

So, just sharing with people, your failures, and if I could have done some things over, I'll be honest about it I would have did that. And where do we have among us, especially as black pastors, the forum, with the expectation of privacy, to share those failures? Now, we talked earlier about Hampton, yes, and we all know about the Lion Tree. Right, and under, the Lion Tree was only the successes and they were magnified yes, successes, and they were magnified, yes, sir, to use they were magnified, the embellishment. But to say, you know well, nobody's joined my church in three months, wow, wow. Or I haven't baptized, yes, you know. In six months, yes, yes. Or I don't have an anniversary, you know in six months, yeah, um, yes. Or I don't have an anniversary. You know that, that's it, that. But. But then that leads to up.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 20:13

I'm jumping around, but I think that leads to your emphasis with pastors um, how do you, how do you manage burnout and how do you go on in ministry, in spite of those instances where things are not going well? And we know that across the country there are pastors who are maybe more white pastors than black, I'm not sure. I mean, we don't normally walk away from the calling, because the calling is central to what we do. We may not want to pastor again, that's right, but we're not going to walk away from ministry. It's not like you're a doctor and you decide you don't want to be a doctor again. You were called into this by God.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 21:13

But then pastors and leaders can walk around going through the motions, burnt out and angry about things that are going on, and resentful of the people God has given to us. Because we go into it with this expectation that, okay, I love God and I'm assuming you love God, so we ought to do great things together. But you find out sometimes that there's a greater love for the church bylaws which may have nothing to do with the bible and and in love with power, uh, that that's accumulated in a church by officers. That can really especially cause younger, all pastors, but especially younger pastors, become very discouraged. And I think you and I have had conversations with pastors. You know, since we've been in it a long time, that you know how did you manage to stay in this and not lose your mind for 40 years?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 22:28

I think that several things. One is I think I've got, I guess I would say, a rounded perspective of advancement as well as adversities. So I'm not delusional about the fact that adversities won't come. Scriptures replete with us. As, just as a believer, forget being a preacher, forget being a pastor, just as a believer, you know we're going to have adversity, temptation. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 10, there's no temptation taking us that ain't coming to us. James says count it all joy when you find yourself going through various kinds of tribulations. Peter says count it no shrines thing. So where in the scripture are we exempt from that? I think when we get.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 23:29

I think our position sometimes makes us delusional about the whole issue that we are recipients of all of these things. Yes, it happens to us, just like it happens to the common member in the pew. You know so. So that I think that's one thing. I think the other thing is that I think this is really very, very, very crucial. You have to surround yourself with people that are like-minded as far as ministry is concerned, as far as their love for Christ is concerned. Those people are not perfect people, but they have a understanding that, in spite of all of our imperfections, we have a perfect Savior that gives us a perfect message for imperfect people. And when you can develop a circle of people, it doesn't have to be a lot. Matter of fact, I think the smaller, the better.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 24:34

People that you can talk with Get away with. You know, have conversations, real conversations, expressing your frustrations, expressing your hurt. You know when officers do something or when a member does something and all these powers that existed before you got to that church and you have someone or some persons that can help you navigate through that stuff so that you can be a conduit of transitioning it. But if you don't have that, you're like shooting in the dark. Eventually you're going to hit it. Yeah, shooting in the dark, eventually you're going to hit it. But I'd rather be more intentional about what it is that I do and what we do in ministry. So I think that piece of having people around you that you can discuss, dialogue, the other thing I think you have to have a life after the benediction and whatever that might be for some.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 25:46

Some is golf, some it's working out. Me is getting on my bike and just rolling and going to bike, events that speak to that side of me, my humanity and again, it's not in the destination, it's in the journey and, you know, while I'm riding. So all that is therapeutic for me and it's not necessarily it becomes a religious activity, but it's not a traditional outside of the box. Yeah, outside of the box. I know guys. You know guys too. They just love golf. Man, oh man, listen, they'll golf in the rain. Yes, oh, yes, yes, because it does something for them. Yeah, it winds up becoming spiritual transformation because, you can see, what you do relates to what the Bible says that we do in life. You know, I had the privilege of commenting or giving some remarks at Dr Herb Luss' funeral when he passed it's homecoming, and I knew him to be a golfer, and so he even said to me one time.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 27:10

He said, man, I'm going to get you out there and I'm going to show you some things that even some of the instructors can't show you. He said, if the Lord, let me get off this bed. I'm going to take you and we're going to go on the golf course and I'm going to show you some things. I said, hey, man, I look forward to that. He never did Because he never could. So at his funeral I took what he was. He was a golfer and I don't know about pars and all that kind of stuff.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 27:42

I googled bogeys and all that kind of stuff. I Googled bogeys and all that kind of stuff. I Googled it and I just asked for the basics of golf and they said that you have to have a long game and a short game. Your long game has to do with your power of what you do. Your short game has to do with your power of what you do. Your short game has to do with being intentional and I applied that to life and to his life and to my life, that we start out with a major long game but as we get older we got to concentrate on our short game, right, be more intentional about stuff. So I think those things help us. Yeah, stop me from getting burned out. Yeah, thank you for that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 28:28

Going back to the talking about a pastor surrounding himself or herself with people who can become close, that takes time. Close, that takes time. And I've said to a pastor who came to me, you know, just concerned about feeling that he is fighting alone, but it takes time to build relationships and an inner circle, yes, and people who will fight for you. Amen, at some point you shouldn't have to Absolutely point, you shouldn't have to Absolutely Some things you shouldn't have to say or ask for Absolutely that you have people who want to fight for you, and now we're talking about those that are in the church. In the church, yes, and I want to get a couple more things in here.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 29:21

Your son is right now, so the father-son thing is familiar to me, but I'm, on the other end, the son of a pastor. You're the father of a preacher, and I can remember what it was like for me to share with my father that I had been called to preach. I was in Atlanta at the time and I went to a in the dormitory no cell phones. I had to go down to the hall or pay phone and wait for these guys. They were lined up, so, going back home talking to their girlfriend, get off the phone. It's 2 o'clock in the morning, right, and I'm calling my dad.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 30:08

What is it like to hear this from a child who you maybe dedicated, baptized, may be dedicated, baptized and at some point says to you that you know the Lord has called me to preach and, of course, you know he preached for us, yes, sir, about a month ago. Thank you, great job. Thank you for the opportunity and opportunities that were given me as a pastor's son to preach when I didn't know what to say. I didn't have a pastor's son to preach, um, when I didn't know what to say, I did. I didn't have a lot to say at all, but those doors were open for me. But here here, uh, he's come along with your name and um, and hearing God's voice and then, um, making his own footprints because we want. You know, I never wanted to mimic my dad, but there's some of my dad in me and there's some of when I listen to him. Absolutely there's some of you in him, and that's the way it ought to be. But just what do you feel? When you got you?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 31:26

It was interesting during the time when Dr Shaw bought the convention to Philly and I was on to speak at one of the sessions. I think I was doing a lecture and somebody else was behind me. Well, that afternoon it was an session, I think it was I get a call from my son that by this time he had a cell phone right. So he calls me and I'm noticing his voice a little trembling and you know it felt like he had a little frustration that he was going through. And so I went down the hallway at the Marriott Hotel at the other end, where nobody was at, and I said what's going on, man? What's happening? He said, dad, I'm tired, I'm tired of doing what I've been doing. I'm tired, I'm frustrated. And I've been running and the Lord's called me, I believe, to preach. I literally slid down the walls. Down the wall, sat on my gluteus maximus man and I was listening to him expressing to me what he was going through, and I knew at that very point that God was calling him to ministry.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 32:38

And he finished the conversation and said what do I have to do? Oh, man, that really messed with me. It's messing with me right now. Right, yeah, I love that a little bit. So and I shared with him. I said listen, son, this is what you got to do. I told him you got to change your major Because he was at Liberty University, he was going for business and management and that kind of thing. So you got to change your major. And I said I need you to go down any area that has to do with ministry. So he went down and looked at youth ministry, and then he, so he changed his major.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 33:15

And so then we started having a conversation about preaching and he said to me this he said this to me. He said, dad, were you always this dynamic that blew me out the water man. I never thought that he would view me as being somebody dynamic or that kind of thing. It humbled me, it broke me. I was crying, I was sharing with him.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 33:39

I pulled over and I said, hey, man, no, this was a process. I didn't go to bed a blunder and work up a him. I pulled over and I said, hey, man, no, this was a process. I didn't go to bed and work up a wonder, so this was a process.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 33:47

I said but promise me, promise me two things. He said okay, dad. I said promise me that you will not preach like me, don't try to mimic me and do it the way that I do it. People want to hear you, they want to hear your authentic voice and you have something to say to not just my generation, but to your generation, the generation's behind that. But be you in doing it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 34:16

I heard him sigh. He was like I said what's wrong? You all right. He said, dad, I thank you for freeing me, man, because I thought that I had to be you. I said the second thing I need you to promise me never seek to preach like me, but promise me you'll study like me, you've seen me study, you see how I study. He said Dad, I promise you that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 34:47

So from that point on, from day one, when he did his initial sermon, he was authentically him. Never tried to mimic me, never tried to, but I seen him going after that text, seeing how he was floating that text, grabbing books off my shelf and doing stuff and asking me questions and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's so rewarding, it's so fulfilling to see your son being if you would, in your footsteps, yeah, going after ministry that way. Right, I'm proud of him. He's doing a great job. Come along. So when I saw him when he was preaching for us and his mother sitting out there, I mean that's again takes me back to when I preached my tribe my mother, sisters, my brother there, I mean that's a moment. Sisters, my brother there, I mean that's a moment. And then, but then, to see this family and the support and the, and you feel a sense, well, the gospel is going to be preached to another generation. Amen Through yep, through your loins. And he's not you, that's right, you know, I can verify that. Okay, and he has his own voice. He speaks to his generation in ways we can't, yep. But he also captures our generation. Yeah, they enlighten us. We do preach to several generations on Sunday, right, and sometimes we can try to preach to one and leave the other ones out. He captures, I think, all of those generations. Yeah, that's my boy, that's my son. Proud of him.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 36:43

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Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 37:48

Yeah, talk about, in the time we have remaining, how do you, in terms of the way God has blessed you and Sharon, god has blessed you and Sharon maintaining a connection with your people, which can be hard to do when you have a lot of people, right, true, now there are some pastors who got 20 people and they're not connected to them, lord, have mercy, and they're not approachable. But I see you as being approachable so that even among the thousands of members of Sharon, they may not have to know that you know them by name, but that they know you, amen, right Through your preaching to them. They feel a personal relationship with you. No-transcript doesn't know my name necessarily, because you can't know all. I don't know all. You know members of my church by name, but the sense in which you're still approachable. Thank you, man, and humble. I mean you could, we could walk around, nobody would necessarily know, right, Mercy, and there are those who, well, you know, who enlarge themselves for no reason.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 39:57

But it reminds me, if I can say, that, when I first met Dr King, when I was in school in Atlanta and he preached at West Hunter Street Baptist Church, standing outside on the sidewalk, I look beside me, there's Martin Luther King Jr standing on the sidewalk, waiting for his wife to get the car and come pick him up. Mama standing on the sidewalk waiting for his wife to get the car to come pick him up. Mama, dr Martin Luther King Jr. No entourage, no press, nothing, just a guy standing on the corner like he was just as ordinary and as humble. That kind of came to mind, because we can lose that sometimes in ministry and not be humble and not be approachable.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 40:54

But you maintain the house, probably unconsciously, it's not something you consciously try to do, but what do you have to say about that? Well, I think for me, number one I'm still amazed that God, first of all excuse me would save me, that he saved me in the state that I was in and he's still saving me and delivering me. You know, progressive sanctification, that's number one. Number two is when I read the scriptures and our Savior, our Lord, god in the flesh, people pressed him. I mean, they touched him. Children sat on his lap and he blessed them. And I'm saying, if he's God in flesh, savior of the world, was approachable, touchable, accessible, who am I, you know to be, to even think that? You know, nobody can touch me or nobody can talk to me, or I can't talk to somebody else. That may not be where I am as far as ministry is concerned.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 42:14

I just never had that concept, I never had that mindset. That was nothing, that was a subject matter that I didn't struggle with. I struggled with a lot of other things, right, sure, but that never was that kind of thing for me that I'm this prima donna. You know, I even heard one preacher I ain't going to say his name on television say that that's why I don't come out and greet the people, because they may subtract from my anointing. And until I give it, you know, until I preach, I don't want people being around me, I want people to touch me, I don't want to shake hands and all that kind of stuff. And so when I heard that kind of, that stuff causes me to cringe. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but but that's what they do, yeah, so I think that's an example of what not to do, I see, and what not to be. You know what I mean. So, yeah, I, I haven't had that. That's not to say that I won't in the future. I pray that I don't, yeah, but I ain't got a little mileage on me now, so I will think there's no reason to change now. You know what I mean. Just continue to be the way that I've always been. And, um, I think even god gets the glory out of that, because he's been my example, man. Yeah, he's been my example.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 43:27

Yeah, yeah, you are what we would call in homiletics class, an expository preacher. I've heard you preach and I've heard you preach expository sermons. What does that mean to you? Why has that been? I think when we put those labels, though, we are other types as well. It's a blending of types, but you know you could be identified, and you identify yourself the same way too, I think, as a pastor or preacher. What does that mean, and how have you seen that as being effective in preaching the gospel in a time when we in the church are dealing with biblical illiteracy? People don't know the Bible. Students in seminary don't always know the Bible and the stories that have shaped us and that have just become a part of us because of the training we've had in church all of our lives. But just talk about your preaching style and, as you see your particular gift. I think that one.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 45:06

I was a student of the late Timothy Ruffin. He used to be a Bula Baptist. Yes, if nothing else, he was a Bible teacher and he also was a Bible preacher. But what I saw him do was he always dealt with a verse in its context, meaning that whatever sermon he preached, he would give you background, he would write you context. You know culture and you know time and all that kind of stuff. All those things and I think subconsciously, when I started preaching I picked that up and I would take a text but I would always go back to. This is in the gospel of john. John was writing to so and so his purpose for writing was such and such and with that purpose being this chapter, this, you know that kind of thing. So what I was doing back then was called I found the name for it's called running commentary, where I would take several verses and just go down it and, you know, preach it Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 46:27

When I got, I guess, better informed, when I went to school, I found out that was called exposition, mm-hmm, position, and I began to construct differently and you know having points and movements in the sermon, and those movements became points. You know, verse one connects to verse two, verse two connects to verse three. So once I learned that hermeneutic, I think that is what influenced me being me taking the expository, preaching approach to Scripture, not just in preaching but in teaching and whatever I do. Secondly, I was growing because when you do expitions you can't skip over verses, and some of those verses spoke personally to me, you know, convicted me or challenged me. Some of them comforted me, some of them encouraged me, but I was growing as I was growing, in the homiletics and hermeneutics of understanding Scripture. I found myself growing. So, as I begin to grow, I can only grow people where I have grown to, and so I wanted to keep growing. So therefore I can share with them on how to grow right and how to be, how to do, um, what the scripture says.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 48:05

So I found that expository preaching back in the 80s is what really grew sharon baptist church. It wasn't a whole lot of singing. They had great choirs. They didn't play a part in it, but people came. That also blew my mind. People came to hear what the Bible had to say about their situation.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 48:32

Right, right, that's another thing that I learned when I became a pastor that people in the pew are not as literate as you think they are, even though they're older than you. Right, I learned that chronological age does not guarantee spiritual maturity. There was a vast difference between the two, mm-hmm, there was a vast difference between the two, and so I had deacons and trustees back then that would say this guy man, this little dude, this little jitterbug, little thug, little jitterbug. How do you know all that? Because that's what was forming me, shaped in me, and I had a thirst for it. So I figured, if I had the thirst, maybe somebody else out there has a thirst for it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 49:28

And I found out there were more people that had a thirst for understanding that verse one connects to verse two, that the author was writing to a people, an audience, and that audience is the same audience that I was preaching to at the time, that we preached, just different times. But the characters change. It's the same issues, same issues that they experienced then. We are experiencing now. That's you know. That's why the word of God is inexhaustible. It's so relevant, so prevalent.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 50:06

But I think we have to know that and if we don't know that, we're not going to approach the scriptures like that. We're not going to approach the scriptures as being a remedy to our practical everyday living. We want to get fancy titles but limited on substance. So I just think expository preaching is the way I know they're. You know topical preaching, textual preaching. I'm just convinced, man, that exposition is the way to go Right. It is also why your people know that. You know them. My Lord, have mercy. There you go. I know my name, that's right, which is okay, yes, sir. But no, that's my issue. Yes, sir, through our preaching is how we're known. That's right, that's true, wow. And our congregations? Yeah, because we speak to what they're going through, right, and we don't exempt ourselves from going through those issues. Right, it's not always you, you, you, you. It's not a we, not just a we, a, we, a us. You know what I mean? Us is.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:21

It was interesting because the last guest we had, dr Lester Taylor. The same thing we preach to the needs of people, absolutely. We have to preach to the needs, absolutely. Tell me about you. Attend the EK Bailey Conference? Yeah, and I, you know, true confession, I've never been. I've wanted to go, never been, and I just keep hearing from you and others about how transforming it is for ministry.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:55

You received an award, yes, sir, there last week. Oh, yeah, I see, and I know you may not like to talk about yourself in awards, but tell us about that and what it means to you, wow, well, they have this portion in the conference that's called Inducting Someone to the Living Legend, hall of Faith, hall of Fame, whatever. This award is based on your legacy, years of people knowing you to be and do certain things, primarily preaching, and how that your preaching has not only transformed your life but the lives of those that you have been ministering to. And they track you um, sometimes, most of the time unknowingly, and they put your name before a committee and that committee affirms whether or not you are one to be considered to be a living legend. When I went through the, they had a section in the hallway at Concord Church where Brian Carter was with Dr EK Bentley Started that church, with all the living legends that are up there, and Dr Mappson and I went through that area that they had and all those pictures Gardner Taylor, dr Jones, bill Jones, kenny Ulmer, emanuel Scott, sr, cesar Clark I mean names that you know and my past L Patterson, kenneth Omer, joel Gregory, and all these names and people.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 54:17

Some of them are still living, some of them have passed on and I literally walked in that area and I sat on the outside of it and I asked the Lord. I said, how did I get here? These guys I mean these are icons of faith, man, and it was very humbling man, very, very humbling, and I'm still processing it. Yeah, sure, I'll be honest with you, I'm still processing it and what it means and what weight that could put on me. You know what I have to carry, you know for the remainder of my days on this side of heaven. But again, very honoring, very humbling and it makes I know.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 55:16

For me anyway, it makes me look at the remainder of my life, what I would call the last quarter of my life, because I got more years behind me than I do in front of me. And if we go by Moses' overall stats, he says in Psalms 93, scoring 10, by reason of strength, you get another 10. So that's like 80 years. So that doesn't mean you're going to make it. 93 score and 10. By a reason of strength, you get another 10. So that's like 80 years. So that doesn't mean you're going to make it, but it doesn't mean you could be over that, you could get more expended time. So for me, what it is in summation of my life is everything I do now is intentional and I am intentional about making it count.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 56:05

I don't want to do anything that's not going to make something impactful, you know, influential, um, hopefully long term. I don't want no hit and miss kind of stuff and or just do stuff because it's an opportunity. As you know, all opportunities are opportunities. Some opportunities can be hindrances, you know to what, where god is trying to take you. So, yeah, yeah, that's what it's done and that's what it's doing for me, and I'm still processing it. And I hear you say that you want to end well. I do Just end. Well, I do.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 56:49

William Augustus Jones used a saying he didn't want to drown in shallow water. My, my, my, I got to write that down. He didn't want to drown in shallow water. My, my, my, I got to write that down. You want to drown in shallow water? Category of my mind.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 57:04

Wow, if we could close now and just briefly talk about the influences. You've named some preachers throughout the course of our conversation, but those major influences but it's going to be a two-part question major influences, voices that stand with you when you preach, because they influence you. Okay, and then, what advice would you give to pastors, young or old? Um, because I think we separate young and old, right, chronologically right, but it doesn't mean we're not facing the same challenges and going and going through the same things. And I think god has always God always has a witness for a generation, amen and is raising voices to speak to this generation as he raised voices to speak to previous generations.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 58:26

Over 40 years, a pastor of pastors and really engaged in the business of growing not only your church but growing other leaders for their churches. What advice would you give? It's a two-part, wow, it was a two-part, wow. Yeah, the voices that have influenced me, and some are still influencing me again, some of these voices are gone with the ages. Yes, ek Bailey, timothy Ruffin, always. Guys like Cesar Clark, oh, yes, evie Hill. Yeah, manuel Scott Sr. And the like.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 59:10

In that season that was, you know, ahead of me. Yeah, we got to know yes, sir, here, yes In the flesh, yes sir, yes sir. And maybe the last in the flesh, yes sir, yes sir. And maybe the last generation to be able to say that, yes, sir, Absolutes will come behind us. I read about them, that's right. I heard tapes about them, but I wasn't there. I mean, we were there, we were there. So those voices still speak to you know L Patterson, I think I said he was my pastor, my last pastor that I've ever had.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 59:45

And then, when it comes to this issue of speaking to pastors now, what would I say? What could I say I would say first of all and I know this sounds very shallow, cliché-ish keep falling in love with Jesus, keep getting to know him in a personal way, and he's multidimensional, so he's inexhaustible. So don't never get to a point where you think that you know it all and know him all. I think that we need to keep that foremost, that we should be open to grow. We have not arrived. We are individuals that I say I'm in the perpetual posture of becoming. I'm still becoming what I need to become and I never will be what I ought to be on this side of becoming. I'm still becoming what I need to become and I never will be what I ought to be on this side of heaven. So, with that being the case, I just say keep growing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:00:50

I say read Anything you can get your hands on. That will help your craft, that will help who you are as a minister, as a Christian, as a minister, as a pastor. Read, man, read, just keep reading, keep reading, and when you keep reading you'll find out how much you don't know. Yeah, you know. And the well will never dry out. That's right. That's right. You got to get in that same space every Sunday, no matter what you did, come on, man, last Sunday is what you're going to do for the next Sunday. Yes, sir, but keep reading. You got to keep reading, man, and read that Bible man. Yes, read the Bible. I mean just, I know that sounds trite, no, it doesn't. But read the Bible, man, as a preacher, as a pastor, as a proclaimer of the word. Read the Bible man.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:01:46

And last but not least, cesar Clark. Back in 1980s, when he was doing revival at Bi-Memoria Two weeks, two weeks revival. Yes, sir, two weeks, two weeks revival. Yes, sir, dr Allen, I had called over to church and we had asked that could he come to Sharon? It's a bunch of us young preachers, it's about 20 of us, 25 of us. Let's ask that could he come in the afternoon? We'll have lunch. I have lunch prepared. That's when we was at 59th and Catherine.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:02:25

So he's a clock walker in my church, man in the basement of my church, and 25, 26 of us was down there and we were just asking him questions. Man, he was giving wisdom diamonds and this one thing, that one question we asked him that shut down the whole session that we had with him and I don't know who it was that asked him, dr Clark, how do you keep coming up with different sermons and you do these revivals, la, la, la, la la. Every time you do them you sound fresh, new. He said this one statement. He said gather wheat from every man's field, but make your own bread. Man that has stuck with me since 1985, 86, whatever that year somewhere around there, when he came to share and then we were in the basement you know apart. So I say gather wheat, gather wheat from every man's field, but make your own bread. That's what I think ministry is about. Amen, yeah, amen, wow, all right, listen, I like the preacher who said I'm coming to a close and he went on for a half hour. Half hour later the sister came up and said I thought you said you were coming to a close, and he went on for a half hour. Half hour later the sister came up and said I thought you said you were coming to a close. And he said I didn't say I was closing, I was summing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:04:11

And this has been a rich conversation. We have enjoyed this conversation with Bishop Keith Reed, who is the distinguished pastor of the Sharon Baptist Church in our city and who has made a great impact not only in Philadelphia, but across this nation. So we thank him for the time. Thank you, man, thank you, Thank you and share with us. Thank you, man. It's an opportunity. Dear friend and brother, yes, uh, and, and, and I have been a recipient of thank you, man, your ministry and vice versa, thank you, thank you, thank you. That's the person, and so if today's conversation, uh, has added value to your ministry, uh, we want you to be sure to subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss any of these episodes. Thank you for being a part of the Ministry Exchange and until next time, keep on leading and encouraging and loving God and letting God use you in God's service. God bless you, amen.