Ep 07 - Ministry In Every Key: A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Dr. Alyn E. Waller returns to explore the sacred intersection of music and ministry—and why, for him, both have always been essential.

Raised in a parsonage where his mother played piano and family harmonies sounded like Sam Cooke and James Brown, Dr. Waller found his voice early and never stopped using it—for worship, for witness, and for the world. Now, as Senior Pastor of Philadelphia’s 15,000-member Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church and founder of Enon Music Group, he continues shaping the sound of the Black church.

This conversation explores:

• The spiritual sensitivity behind deciding when to sing or preach
• How sacred music connects generations and cultures
• Creating space for authentic, Christ-centered artistry through Enon Music Group
• Enon Music Group’s role in preserving Black sacred music traditions
• Supporting independent gospel artists beyond industry exploitation
• The story behind his latest project “I Still Believe” and its global reach
• Why everything in worship must prepare hearts for the Word

With passion, humor, and wisdom, Dr. Waller reminds us that ministry happens in every key—and sometimes the deepest sermons are sung, not spoken.

Chapters

• 0:00 Ministry Exchange Introduction
• 2:10 Musical Roots in the Parsonage
• 7:16 Church Music Tradition and Transition
• 13:43 Preaching and Musical Influences
• 22:14 Hymns: Connecting Generations in Worship
• 30:38 The Pastor as Lead Worshiper
• 38:17 Creating Enon Music Group
• 45:55 Recording and Studio Experience
• 50:12 Music Ministry and Future Vision

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to the ministry exchange with Dr Mapson, which is a place for us to gather to explore issues of ministry the traditional church, the contemporary church and help navigate the challenges that are so many and so great in today's world. We are very delighted today to have back with us for a second time the Reverend Dr Alan E Waller, who is the pastor of the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church in Philadelphia and whose congregation numbers upward to 15,000, and is also the founder of the Enon Music Group, which is a gospel label committed to cultivating artists and producing spirit-led music, preserving the richness of the Black sacred music tradition. Dr Waller is a three-time Stellar Gospel Music Award nominee and has been recognized for his solo projects as well as his executive production work. He's been recently nominated for the Avidity Awards. He's a global presence in terms of preaching ministry, in terms of music ministry. He's traveled internationally, just came back from a trip which we're going to talk about during this session. He is passionate about music ministry and music education and is currently pursuing advanced studies in music at one of our local institutions.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 2:00

Sometimes we preach sermons, sometimes we preach sermons and I suppose we can't get everything we want in that sermon, and so we make up a part to do in order to cut across the field and get it next time. Get it next time. And so thank you again for coming in, for being with us.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 2:29

I am honored. I'm so looking forward to this conversation, because so much of what I think about music and have experienced came as a result of reading your first book. I think it was your first book, and and so I'm grateful for this opportunity to let people know about your influence in music and particularly in my life.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 2:40

Thanks very much. So let's let's begin just going back to the beginning. What's interesting is that we've had probably two other guests who've also had music backgrounds, and Lester, taylor, yep, and Walter Bishop, walter Thomas. Now we we kind of pluck around playing and then you know, you guys, you and Lester, a little further advanced, but that connection between the preaching ministry and music ministry is very real, particularly in the black church, particularly in the black church. Let's go back to the beginning, and we had conversations earlier about, in my case, my mother. My mother played the piano and I can remember now listening to her playing old hymns on a Wurlitzer piano in the living room and that's kind of my memory of music in my spirit. My dad was not a singer, but you had what Evans Crawford calls homiletical musicality, which was another word for he could hoop, he could hoop.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 4:03

It was a rhythmic celebration. Yeah, and that's the same way with my father. My father could not sing, but he had a celebration that had a rhythmic tonality and my mother was his minister of music. So, like you, I grew up in a parsonage. There was a Hammond organ and a Wurlitzer piano Parsonage.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 4:28

Yeah, I guess a lot of in this generation don't know what a parsonage is, Right.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 4:33

And I grew up in that, and so music has been around for as long as I can recall. It was just a part of my upbringing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 4:43

Yeah, yeah, call, it was just a part of my upbringing. Yeah, yeah, and and and then talk about your, the family.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 4:49

Uh, yeah, gifted musicians well, you know the interesting thing about my father. He um well, he was married a couple of times because his wife passed and so forth. He always married a 24 year old musician. He just didn't stay 24 himself. So my older brother, my oldest brother, alfred, he sounded like Sam Cooke when he sang. My older brother, alexander, sounded like James Brown when he sang.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 5:16

My older sister, wendy, lives in Weimar, germany, right now and has been a part. She was queen of the night in Madam Butterfly, in the opera. She was the consummate queen of the night. So I've just grown up in musical, in a musical family. My cousin, michi, is a part of gospel music history with the John P Key piece and that whole Philadelphia sound. John P Key piece and that whole Philadelphia sound. I'm grateful I realized that I could sing. I was eight years old, coming home from a Billy Graham crusade in Cleveland, ohio, and we were in the back of the church station wagon. You know, with the window that you could sit out, look out in the back. You know, with the window that you could sit out, look out in the back, and we were singing the hymns that were sung at the at the at the crusade and it was the first time I realized I I sound like the people, I sound like the radio.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 6:18

And it was at that point I started trying to sing all of Michael Jackson's stuff and my older brothers would have me sing who's Loving you when they bring their girlfriends over. And I'm like eight years old. Of what we did it was part of growing up and it just made sense that the music and the preaching it went together. And I learned to play the piano first by just copying my mother. It's in the living room, so you just learn to pick. And I think most of us knew how to play it before we could read it. Yes, and in the black church tradition there's certain things you just sort of know and you don't really need to read. And I'm not arguing that's a great thing. But it's usually talent first and training second. That's true.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:24

Yeah, Now the transition from the organ. Now do you play organ also, I do. Which do you like better or do you have?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 7:32

Well, I think, because of how old I am I come out of the when the piano led the organ. You know things have changed since we learned. Things have changed since we learned, I would argue. I learned how to play during the Walter Hawkins, keith Kringle, james, cleveland era and the organ followed the piano. So the piano set the tone. So I'm most comfortable there. I didn't really get the organ under my fingers until I was in deep into college, and so we didn't have a good Hammond organ at the Shiloh Baptist Church in Cleveland, ohio, because it was a blue blood thing. We had that pipe organ and we had a type of Hammond organ, but it wasn't the B3. And my father wasn't that kind of hooper, so my mother didn't catch him at the end of his sermons with the Hammond organ. In fact he wasn tell him to stop. Yeah, because that wasn't him. The deacons moaned with him Right and the Hammond organ hadn't yet replaced the front row deacon. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 9:03

Yeah, and the sisters, and the sisters. That and the sisters that's right, who would uh help to tune? Yeah?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 9:09

yeah, my aunt lucille would help him jesus, and so yeah, and, and when she said help him jesus, because he wasn't doing too well, but that's when the church would come alive, right, that's right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 9:26

I mean they. I mean they listened to the message and and, and those preachers had great um, we need to give them credit for being solid in terms of the content, that's right, and the exegesis, but it was the beauty of that when, when they shifted to that music, yeah, and it seemed so seamless and unrehearsed, you know, just like natural shifting, and my dad from alabama, so that that whole southern rural style, that's right, that that our parents brought from and grandparents brought from the South to the North, and I think it was.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 10:05

I mean, when you really unpack that preaching, it was tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, tell them what you told them. And then there is the information, inspiration, celebration of black preaching, so that when you came to the end and the part that we're talking about, the tuning or the celebration, there's no new news in that You've already made the argument. Now there's a celebration of that truth and it really is in the tradition of the African griot. It's musical, it's theological, it's cultural. The sad reality is there's been such a disconnect with the community. There's a younger generation that doesn't understand it, therefore doesn't appreciate it, and when there is an appreciation for it, there's an appreciation for the art of it, but it's lost, the gravity and the seriousness of it. And so you can find guys that can tune and move around, but the absence of real theological thought and connection to the journey of the sermon has been lost in some cases.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 11:16

Yeah, Then let's talk about, then, some influences, because I don't know if we touched on it the first time, but influences in ministry in terms of forming the voices that you hear when you're preaching, that you don't mimic necessarily, but also musical voices, because it seems to me that the model you have, you have chosen, there are some preachers who also sing, and there are, and do you know? Talk about the model of preaching models, first of all, but also the models of, and you know the whole dynamic of a lot of musicians are called to preach, after they they're musicians.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 12:16

Yeah Well, I grew up. My father is still the biggest preacher in my head. The first album that I ever bought was CAW Clark. I bought that album interestingly enough 1972, when the National Baptist Convention met in Dallas, texas, and my father was the Tuesday morning preacher because he was the host of the convention the year before. Because he was the host of the convention the year before and that's the year I bought. The first album I ever bought for myself was CAW Clark. I just liked Cesar Clark, the rhythm, intonation, all of that. That's what influenced me early.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 13:01

And then hearing my dad and Cesar I mean C Caesar Clark had a message, yes, absolutely, CO Franklin had a message I mean those guys really were serious about that text, exegesis, as well as the gift that they had. So, anyway, I didn't want to.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 13:21

No, that was real for me. And then just growing up around the music, that was. Now we're talking about the 70s and listening to Walter Hawkins, James Cleveland, and coming out of that Walter Hawkins thing into the commission slash Winans, or I should say Winans slash commission era, or I should say Winans slash commission era. And now I'm getting ready to be in college and I I went to be. I wanted to be a computer systems in business. So I got on college campus. But you never really know who you are until you don't have parents telling you to do what you want to do. So living on campus I realized I liked being with the choir, I liked going into the school of music. My piano playing had gotten to the point where I was decent. So my freshman year there was a guy named George Dawkins who played for the Ohio University Gospel Voices of Faith and I sat under him and I learned a lot. He opened the world up.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 14:45

So now it's 1983. I'm trying to figure out what's going on and I know I want to do church music. But my friend, Gerald Levert, who I used to sing with in high school, was getting big and he's you know the OJs and his father. I'm trying to figure all this out and my mother hands me your book and your book Black Church. Music in the Black Church just opened up a world for me. It had helped me think about the importance of music, helped me own that I could be a part of that tradition. It helped me think about how I could serve. And so I started getting serious about music. And then in my wrestling match I spent some time saying to the Lord okay, I'm not going to preach, but I will only do church music, I'll only do gospel music and I will hold on to the tradition. What I get from your book is that there is a way to take all of music and use it and there's a time and place for it all.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 15:57

I think about my mother.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 15:59

On any given Sunday morning she started out on the pipe organ and then she ran around the back over to the piano or the other organ and my father called it switching gears. So there was always a hymn to start out as the choir processed, and then there was a morning hymn and the morning hymn was big and it was played on the pipe organ and then after the morning hymn we went into prayer and after we got out of prayer, we went into the music of our culture, and that was leading us to the penultimate moment of preaching. One of the unique things about Enon today is that we live in the tradition of that and I'm rooted in it because of what I learned from you and even now, at Enon, if, if they let me do something musically, I'm the one that's going to teach a hymn. I'm the one that's going to make sure that we sing a hymn on Sunday morning, because I believe that there's power in it, there's life-giving power in it, and there's no bad music, there's just music out of place.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 17:16

That song does not belong here, it's not that it doesn't belong, it belongs somewhere else. Even as I started pastoring in the early 90s, I was determined to pastor the people that came to Christ at Kirk Franklin's concert, and that was intentional. What I was saying is he's not doing music for the church, he's doing music to bring people to church. But now when those people who listen to that music come to Christ, they're going to need a church that understands how they got here, but they're still going to have to come the rest of the way into the culture and I feel, uniquely for our generation, gifted and called to help people make that transition. So I'm not mad at Kirk Franklin then, or not necessarily now. I just recognize his music is not for Sunday morning, right, it doesn't make it bad, it just means it's for the Thursday night show, and let's just call it what it is.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 18:29

Yeah, it's that, but somebody is going to be inspired. Now we need a church that's ready to take that person and finish the rest of the journey, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 18:47

Yeah. So the way you've used that I mean because if you reject that, then you rejected the people who like that and that's why I never make that transition to where they need to be Exactly.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 18:51

And Kirk Franklin is not the first person to take secular themes and use them in spiritual context. He's not the first black person. He's not the first person. That has always existed. We know it has always existed and we can talk about different examples. You know even Yolanda Adams when she sings Open Up my Heart, which is really major. Harris's Love Won't Let Me Wait, jesus'. Best thing that ever happened, that's James Cleveland. Amazing Grace is an old drinking tune.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 19:23

You know, we, we right right.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 19:25

I don't like selective outrage amongst people. We get mad at some things, but we let other things go. That's not fair. I think that we all ought to ask where does this fit, and particularly with art. Art is is a gift that not all of us have the ability to produce, and if somebody produces art, we just need to ask where's the best place for this piece to hang well, later on I was going to bring in this whole matter of of the pastor being responsible for the music of the church and of worship. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 20:05

Even if the pastor is not musically trained now, it would help to have some kind of training or at least appreciation, so that you know what a hymn is, you know what the lyrics are, you know theologically. But it seems to me that what you're saying is you know what the lyrics are, you know theologically. But it seems to me that what you're saying is that the pastor, regardless of his musical ability, is in charge of the music and the chief worship leader.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 20:33

Even if he can't, he or she can't sing or play, but is guiding that so that the worship for you is authentic and Christ-centered and not just commercial and entertaining and I think that we are supposed to be the lead worshiper.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 20:54

So when I try to tell our associates, I think you need to know how to lead the morning hymn. Even if you can't sing, you can do a call and response with the people. That is a very cultural experience. When I stand up on Sunday morning and say we're going to sing hymn number 411, lift Him Up, lift him up and then I say how to reach, how?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 21:25

to reach the men of every birth. And I'm just calling back and forth. I'm not only leading a hymn, I'm stepping back into a historical experience going all the way back to when the black preacher may have been the only one in there that could read and he lined the words out. Now I know my people can read, but I believe the hymn is that moment when, theologically, the great cloud of witness joins together, the church triumphant and the church militant comes together. I believe when we sing a hymn, that's when my grandmother, who's gone home, can say, oh yeah, he's still in church, he's still pastoring a church. It's where my grandmother, me and my daughter and grandson gather together.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 22:07

I think there's significant impact in the morning hymn and we, as the preachers, need to be the worship leaders. Therefore, I challenge the tradition of the pastor who sort of stays in the back until just before the pre-sermonic selection. That, I think, feeds into the show that some people think our church is. I think we should be out there Now. I know I tend to come out during praise in our context, but I think I am to be the lead worshiper and it's in the tradition of the African griot, who had the history, the theology and musicality to tell the story and teach people who they were and where they were going Right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 23:03

And that hymn is a unifying, it is Because it's the one musical piece where everybody should be able to participate.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 23:14

That's right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 23:15

Some of our other music, of course, is specialized music. That's why they rehearse and everything that's right and we become recipients of that. But we're participants when we, if we know the hymns, of course, and they're sung, we're participants in them and it kind of sets a tone for the worship. So when I walk into Enon or any church, when I look to the front, you can sense what's of value, even musically. When you walk in your church and you see that is it Allen or Rogers? We have a Rogers. We see that Rogers. Yeah, that says something.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 24:00

Yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 24:00

Because that's not in a lot of churches, yeah.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 24:03

Yeah, and that was intentional, yes, and it wasn't cheap, but we wanted to tie in the generations. And I think it is important and I think it's a lie when people say that young people don't like hymns. Young people don't like poor quality, anything Right. And if they're walking around with earbuds in and the music they're listening to has been mixed from 128 tracks down to this left and right and it's well produced, then when they come to their church and there's just somebody sitting over there on the piano and there's no real thought to production, given um, then they're not going to like that. But if you take time and rehearse all of the stanzas of a hymn and you play it like it is written um, and you sing the four-part harmony, that is there, right um there. Young people will appreciate that as well.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 25:03

Yeah, yeah, and even a hymn can be slow, but still that's right.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 25:06

That's right, but still exciting Still exciting, still lively, and it's what we bring to it. If I don't look like I'm enjoying it, then nobody else is going to enjoy it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 25:18

In terms of determining and, of course, through the work of the Holy Spirit, determining do you sing prior to the sermon or after the sermon, or not at all, because that's a choice, yeah, and maybe sometimes it's not necessarily a planned choice.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 25:42

And that's it. It's not, it's not planned, and I I wrestle with um. You know there is a pre-sermonic song and music is to prepare hearts to hear the word of God and inspire hearts to act upon the word of God. So that pre-sermonic song is important. There can be occasion when the choir that just sung makes a strong argument for letting the rocks cry out, and you might need to do it yourself. I don't want to, but then I don't want to lean into that, because I would never want a choir to think that, because I sang before I preach, I was making comment about what they just sung, right? So, generally speaking, I don't sing before I preach. If, in fact, and the only reason that I will do the singing before or after I preach is that the song actually ties into the sermon in a very specific way, right? So if I stand up and the choir, if the choir has just sung something very fast and the church is in worship and now it has gone into a full shout, my responsibility is to get us from there back to a pre-contemplative moment. And that might be something as simple as what Bishop Mason did with yes, yes, which was meant to yes. That's all right, we affirm let's come on back in now, back in Right, let's get ready to receive the word. Or the song could be used to set the sermonic thought up. What I have found is that after I've preached there, there there are a couple of songs that help me sort of put a period on the end of the sentence and I will sing then. But usually the preaching moment is the preaching moment and the singing moment is the singing moment.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 28:01

I found that I do a lot of singing at funerals and in fact, theologically, what I honestly believe is the Lord. This is my personal conviction. I believe that my gift is first for families at funerals and I sing to them to help them with this moment. Everything else I do is gift and gravy from God. That allows me to follow my passion, but the ministry I probably do my best work for.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 28:37

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Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 29:46

TerryFuneralHomecom and thank you. The Lord laid on my heart after I'd worked out how to understand the gift along with preaching, because, interestingly enough, when I first started preaching, I had been a minister of music and you had all these older preachers saying well, waller, you know you're preaching now and you don't need to be known for singing and you need to stop all that singing, you need to stop all that playing. And I was listening to it. But then it dawned on me the preachers that were telling me this could neither sing nor play, and so I had to step back. I am convinced that the Lord called me and told me not to pursue being an artist, and so I have.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 30:24

These last 35 years I've not pursued artistry. I have. He told me that I would help artists, and that's where the label comes from. The Lord allows me to sing at times and do things, but not to pursue artists, and what I understood that to mean is that I'm not to do the stuff of artistry that takes me into the business and away from ministry, and that's my own personal conviction. That's why, even now, as I do this project, personal conviction, that's why, even now, as I do this project, I am. I am enjoying a season of freedom where I'm I'm doing the music I'm singing where the Lord gives me permission to sing, but I'm not chasing anything. Um and and again. Your work helped me balance that out. Your work helped me balance that out. I am trying, with the label, to give younger artists an opportunity to experience using their gift without the ugliness of the industry, discouraging them or abusing them.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 31:37

Yeah, Talk, talk about this more in terms of the label, Maybe something that you had not thought about early in ministry, but it's coming out of this whole connection to wanting church music to again to be authentic, theologically sound. Mm-hmm again to be authentic, theologically sound, because it is not always that, as we know, and that's because it's the gospel music is a billion dollar business.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 32:14

I mean there's, there's money out there. Now most of the money is not made by artists and not made on the independent side and the labels get a lot of money and that's certainly not what we're doing it for. But having a what we have is an artist friendly label that encourages younger people who may not have an opportunity to be signed by a major or an opportunity to get their music out, get it distributed, own their stuff and be able to enjoy just simply making music. I've enjoyed watching Zach Williams and One Accord. They're on the radio, they're an Enon music group. Alfonso Evans is a young man who's at Howard University now. He was on the label and he had a album Not Too Young to praise him, and there have been others that we've distributed to just help them experience the joy of creating music and having people hear their music and then they can earn the monies that can be earned and we don't have to gobble it up as a label.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 33:42

I've enjoyed doing that. I'm having a level of success, but for me at this age and in this season, success is I did it, it does literally. Is I did it, it does Literally, there's nothing to prove for me, there's nothing that has to happen. The joy is literally in. I got a chance to sing it. This Avidity Award and the stellar nominations in and of themselves is the joy for me and I'm grateful for it. Any Sunday morning that I choose to sing, it feels like a gift that God has given me and I just enjoy it. So we want others to enjoy doing music. Our label is meant to call the industry back to church, because what has developed is there are a number of people doing music. They don't expressly mention Jesus. There's an ambiguity to the wording. So the love that we're talking about could be love of you, or love of him, or love of her, or love of God. Right, we want it to be expressly calling people back to church. The gospel should be about Jesus and that's what we want to do with the label.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 35:07

Right, right, and I think that counters the age when most of the gospel singers came out of the church. Absolutely that's not always the case now, and even the secular, those who went into what people would say, then started singing the devil's music yeah, yeah, which we know was not devil's music but they came out of the church and that disconnect. Now it seems like this is a way to reconnect that, and again, theologically. What are we doing and is this about Christ and what are we singing?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 35:49

You know, there's been an ongoing struggle with pastors and their ministers of music. Sometimes it's a jealousy struggle, it's a artist versus ministry struggle and sometimes it's an artist versus artist struggle. I think we have to, as pastors, remind our ministers of music that they are ministers of music, not treat them like gig employees, but actually treat them as part of a worship team and allow them to have some fingerprint in the music. Think I see at times is that minister music that you have was called of God and has gift and wants to have their fingerprint on the worship experience as well. And because we as pastors hold it so close, you'll then have this wonderfully gifted artistic guy who doesn't feel like his gift is being honored. Therefore he plays for your church, but then he has a community group, Audie Walker and the Voices of Liberation, who get his best work. And if I treat him more like a partner in ministry, then maybe my mass choir will get your best work and not this unattached community thing that you're doing. And so I believe that we have to have a better conversation with musicians, because the gig mentality has kicked into the church, where you have all of these wonderfully gifted guys who have no pastor, who have no place where they are submitted in ministry. They've just got a bunch of places that they play and sing and so we've got to challenge that culture. But in challenging it, when you challenge pastors to not be so intimidated and challenge the gig artist to recognize they all need a home.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 38:00

Richard Smallwood never stopped being the organist and metropolitan in Washington DC. In all his fame and glory he still recognized H Beecher Hicks as his pastor and was faithful to his Jerusalem. And then God did everything else for him. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 38:24

And back to the studio piece. What is it like recording in a? I mean, that's got to be a fascinating experience in a studio, and what does it look like and who's there?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 38:39

Yeah, it really is. I feel that I am living my dream right now and whatever happens happens, I've gotten permission from God to do it. I still believe is music that I or my cousin, michi Garland, michi Waller, have written over the years and I named it. I still believe because after 36, 35 years of pastoral ministry, 31 here and four in Pittsburgh, I still have a burning passion for the Lord, jesus Christ. I still believe in this church thing. I still believe in music. So it's called. I Still Believe the reason that the front of the cover is a picture of a cross and I'm standing behind it. It is that same tradition that we as pastors talk about hide me behind the cross, and that's what it is. I still believe that music prepares hearts to hear the word of God and inspires hearts to act upon the word of God. Really, give some prayerful consideration as to what I want to say. To whom am I saying it and what do I want? Production is all about. What do I want you to get out of what I have said? What am I trying to communicate to you? And so some of the music that's on there.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 40:12

I wrote a song, my Praise, and I say there's a story. To my praise, there's a reason. You know I'm known to preach and stand on furniture and throw things. Well, that comes from somewhere and it comes from what has happened in my life. The I Still Believe is a song. I Believe is a song that my cousin Michi wrote and he says you are the one that lifts my head up, you are the one that never fails. And that song is about I still believe that God can fix things. I want people to know. As bad as this country is right now, as crazy as our president is, as nuts as the political realities are, I still believe God is going to fix this thing, and it's going to work out for our good and so I'm excited about it.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 41:08

Avidity Awards are fun. We'll see what happens in February, but right now I'm living the dream and um, and to be 61. And I I I say that understanding that you looking at me like I still got milk in my mouth, person's thing and so, at 61, to have the prospects of being able to have my music played on the radio or somebody will buy it or ask me to come and do a concert is fun.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 41:45

Yeah and um, I'm excited about that, enjoying this yeah, yeah, yeah still believe in the black church, absolutely, absolutely I do this.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 41:55

Yeah, and and again. I can't overemphasize how much your book set me on this same trajectory. Um, the, the song that is out right now that is playing all over the South, um is, I've decided to make Jesus my choice. I just redid that song that we all have sung in our churches, some folk would rather, and, and that thing is playing all over the Bible belt and that's exciting to me. And what I'm getting, the feedback that I'm getting, is that people have said you know what, we still want to hear that and that's the stuff that got us over, and maybe we need to remember that. That's the music that's going to get us through this season with the political realities that we're dealing with your cousin is very critical to this whole thing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 43:01

Garland Meachie Waller is Spirit.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 43:05

Yes, he is a part of the history of when you study what happens, you go. Thomas Dorsey, 1933, 1934, begins this gospel music. He's the father of gospel music. The afternoon worship service is because the black church didn't want that kind of music on Sunday morning. I was raised in that tradition. My mother, if I flatted too many chords she'd say don't play those afternoon chords on Sunday morning. So you go from Thomas Dorsey to James Cleveland and then James Cleveland gives over to Walter Hawkins. Then Walter Hawkins and Andre Crouch open up a commercial reality and then that sort of led us into the commissioned Winans thing and they made smooth jazz, r&b meets gospel. But there was still a message.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 44:02

But then this guy named John P Key comes along and he takes the truth of the Winans and the commission but brings the big choir sound back and that's where my cousin Michi comes in. Michi was the musical genius behind all of that. In fact Michi is a precursor to Kirk Franklin and putting some of the secular themes in. Michi was the first Black gospel musician to stack keyboards and do the synthesizer thing. When you listen to John P Key and the 80s and you listen to that music, that's my cousin Michi, and so another piece for Inan Music Group now is Michi is giving back to the industry, is Michi is giving back to the industry out of the richness of his experience with John P Key and I'm enjoying doing this work with him and I believe that Michi was back in Philadelphia to also influence the rest of the musicians who are here in Philly and in my stable, because some of the guys that play at Enon are some of the finest musicians in the city, but they needed the wisdom that Nietzsche brings to help them not get caught up in gig culture and not get caught up in the ugliness of the music business. And so I'm extremely excited about it and just riding the wave and hoping that we're going to influence a generation of musicians to recognize that serving the Lord pays off doesn't mean you can't stretch out in your music ministry, because I have done things.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 46:01

I have played at the City Winery and at South and at the Keswick, and there's a song that is smooth jazz that I wrote and it says I love to sing this way and it's set in a jazz context, but the words of it is I love to sing this way. I love to sing this way. What matters are the words I have to say, and if you feel the love, it comes from heaven up above. I love to sing this way. When I was young, they told me if it moves your feet, it's from the devil. You ought to settle down. But I found out that it was God who gave me the beat, and now I'm here to pass this love around. I love to sing this way and it's set in a jazz idiom.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 46:47

Yeah it's not for Sunday morning, but it is for that person who is sitting here not showing up in church. But he turns on the jazz station and I remind him or her of what his mother told him 60 years ago, and that's, that's at least what I think.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 47:08

I'm trying to do, yeah, yeah, wow, fascinating the trip to France.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 47:13

Yes, wow, fascinating the trip to France, yes, I went to France to a music festival in Cannes it's in the French Riviera and it was an opportunity as a artist on EMG's label to sing for other promoters, producers, to find out about music being played on the radio in France and in the UK. So there's a golden opportunity to share our music around other ways that musicians can have their music played. When you listen, when you walk in an apartment, a department store and you hear music playing. They didn't just turn on the radio. That music is sync licensed. When you watch a commercial or when you watch a movie, their soundtrack, or when the kids play video games. All of that music is music someone has written and is getting out there and we want to expose young people to the legacy and the beauty of the business of music that they can take advantage of. And so I learned more about that while in Cannes and I have an opportunity to share my music in the UK because of being there in the French Riviera.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 48:54

So it's exciting. I can tell you, yes, it must be. It must be Just in closing, which I hate to do, just in terms of looking at the church and the future. What would you like to see more of in terms of our music and worship as we're going forward?

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 49:22

I would like for all of us, as pastors and musicians, to recognize the importance of the worship experience as a place to celebrate God, as a place to celebrate God, to celebrate our culture, and that we would have a larger tent to appreciate the various ways and genres of music that have come and been influenced by us but are relevant for the worship experience.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 49:54

I love going back to your book and my mother playing the pipe organ at the beginning of worship at Shiloh, transitioning to the organ as we walk towards the preached word. I'd love to see more churches take seriously the production and the diversity of tools and gifts that are available, all of them in service to the preached word, because we still believe that everything that is done is leading us up to this penultimate moment, which is the preached word. So, whatever choir sang, you're singing to get people ready to hear this word, or you're playing to get people ready to hear this word, and I call it penultimate because the ultimate moment is when we invite people to cry. That's the moment and when we take that seriously, I believe that's the stuff that is going to change our community and heal our community. So I would love to see a better conversation between pastors and ministers of music and an appreciation for the length and breadth of the history of music in the church.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I noticed you said that your mother, when she got off of the pipe or when she went to the back, yeah, okay, that's right, she didn't go across the front.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 51:25

No, no, no, she did not go across the front and anybody that grew up in the church knows you don't walk across that the sacredness, and you don't walk down that middle aisle and all of that, that's right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:35

Yeah, all of that, that's right. Yeah, well, we certainly have been blessed doing this episode to hear from Dr Alan E Waller, who is pastor of Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church, and thank you so much. Thank you For this conversation that again has been rich. Thank you so much for this conversation that again has been rich. Just your willingness to come back the second time, I think, just kind of helped to complete the first episode in terms of what the Lord has gifted you to do in terms of pastoral ministry and music ministry, and serves as a model for us to think seriously about worship but always keep the gospel at the center. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller: 52:38

Everything is moving toward that. Thank you for that and and thank you for this podcast. It's been such a blessing to be associated with what you're doing. The audience that you have, uh, I think you are blessing the generations. Um, I've, I've noticed, and I've been watching since our first one you have a unique space in our, in our fellowship, and I think you're doing something that not everyone could do and it's so important because you're calling the generations together and I thank you for allowing me to be a part of what you are doing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 53:13

Thank you, thank you so much, and if you would like to continue these kinds of conversations, we hope that you will continue then to subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss any episodes, and thank you for listening and for being a part of it, and God bless you Amen.