Ep 08 - Built to Imagine, Called to Lead: A Conversation with Rev. Dr. Kevin R. Johnson

From two rejection letters to the pulpit of Abyssinian.

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Rev. Dr. Kevin R. Johnson unpacks a journey marked by resilience, prophetic courage, and legacy leadership. Now the 21st Senior Pastor of the historic Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, Dr. Johnson reflects on what it means to lead with conviction—even when it costs you.

We talk about:

• Getting into Morehouse after being denied—twice
• Founding Dare to Imagine Church from his living room
• Speaking out against President Obama—and the fallout that followed
• Balancing ministry and family before it was too late
• Succeeding Dr. Calvin O. Butts III and stewarding one of the Black Church’s most iconic pulpits

This episode is for every pastor, preacher, and leader ready to reimagine what calling, courage, and church leadership can look like today.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dr. Kevin Johnson
• 5:42 Influential Voices in Johnson's Ministry
• 9:27 The Journey to Morehouse College
• 21:49 Speaking Truth to Power
• 30:42 Founding Dare to Imagine Church
• 40:50 Family Priority in Ministry
• 47:48 Returning to Abyssinian Baptist Church
• 57:25 The Prophetic Voice for Today

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to the Ministry Exchange with Dr Mapson. This is a podcast designed to help equip pastors and leaders of the issues that affect the church today and to bridge the gap, if there is one, between what we call the traditional church and the contemporary church, which is the same, but how do we take the best of our tradition and wed it with an emerging culture and church in order to serve this present age? We are delighted today to have as our special guest the Reverend Dr Kevin R Johnson, who is the pastor 21st senior pastor. The pastor, 21st senior pastor, and that makes sense when you think about the fact that Abyssinia is over 200 years old.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Yes, sir, the 21st senior pastor of what has been called what is the historic Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, new York. It is the first African-American Baptist church in the state of New York, but, even more importantly, it is certainly for me I won't say one of, but I would say the premier black church in America in terms of. It's not the largest in terms of membership or in terms of sanctuary size and all of that, but it is certainly the most significant in the life of the black church, formerly pastored by our dear friend, reverend Calvin O Butts III. Formerly, he was lead pastor of Dare to Imagine Church in Philadelphia, which is a church that was founded in your living room, yes, sir, about 20 people, yes, and grew to about 1,500 members. He is the former president and CEO of OIC and, thinking about Dr Leon Sullivan, I'm telling you, it seems like we could use a lot of his strategy today, yes, sir, strategy today in dealing with some of the issues that are affecting our people.

Speaker 1: 2:50

But certainly a name that every black person should know, called the Lion of Zion, who was pastor of Zion Baptist Church. Dr Johnson was president and CEO. He's a proud graduate of a little school in Atlanta Little school, a little school called.

Speaker 1: 3:06

Morehouse College and my first Morehouse brother to be on the podcast. Oh, I'm humbled. We got to talk about Morehouse. There's no way that Morehouse men can be in the same place for any length of time and not talk about Morehouse. Yes, sir, that's it.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Also a graduate of Union Theological Seminary in New York, where he was a scholar and then received a doctor of education degree from Columbia University in organizational leadership, dr Johnson is a respected preacher and educator. Global leader, has been featured on CNN, msnbc as well as Fox. He is a husband, a father, and continues a great tradition with Morehouse and Spellman. Yes, one son having graduated from Morehouse, two daughters they're now Now in Spellman, and that calls for a lot of prayer. Yes, lord, yes, lord, and money, and money as well, and so we're delighted to have you. Dr Johnson's been a friend over the years, particularly since coming to Philadelphia several years ago.

Speaker 1: 4:34

I just want to begin the conversation by talking about your influences. You're Texan by birth, which is understandable. That you are also a Dallas Cowboy fan there's no other way to do this. Listen, I mean, I understand that because I'm from North Jersey and my heart is. I don't know if I should say this, but my heart is still with my New York teams. Yeah, my heart is still with my New York teams, yeah, and still trying, though, to embrace Philadelphia teams as well. Who are the influences that stand with you and whose voices you hear?

Speaker 2: 5:29

as you're preaching. First, thank you for having me on your podcast, the Ministry Exchange. I think this is beyond great. I wish that we had more persons like you, more ministers, more pastors who have that type of vision, so that we can help future generations.

Speaker 2: 5:50

As far as those who I have looked up to and who are constantly in my ear you know it's an eclectic group there are a number of persons who have influenced me. Obviously, my mentor, dr Butts, is a person who influenced my preaching. Dr Otis Moss Jr, there in Cleveland Ohio, was someone that I looked to. Dr MossI remember meeting him when I was at Edmore House and I remember adopting him as my father, even though biologically that is not the case. But I loved his preaching so much so that I mimicked everything, even getting glasses and taking off my glasses and moving them the way that Dr Moss would do.

Speaker 2: 6:35

Others are Dr Charles G Adams he was one of the most brilliant manuscript preachers I've ever heard and would read the entire sermon, but you felt like he was preaching in an expository way and then also, I would say, dr Jeremiah Wright again, the fieriness that came with his sermons. And lastly and this is someone who is not a Christian minister, but Minister Louis Farrakhan, and primarily because, when you look at his social critique and how he would be able to dissect and deconstruct messages and make it plain for people to be able to hear, the message was quite powerful. And there are a plethora of other individuals who have influenced me, but those are some of the principal ones.

Speaker 1: 7:26

Yeah, and you're talking about Dr Moss. I too met Dr Moss when I was a student. Yeah, he was at that time. He was maybe, probably in his 30s, late 30s, right, and he would come to Atlanta every year to run revival at Union Baptist Church.

Speaker 2: 7:46

Yes, that's where Kimi and I were married, at Union Baptist Church, yes, sir, 1997. And Dr Moss married us at Union Baptist Church, is that so. Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 7:56

And I would go out there every night to hear him. And you know he was the rising star in the Black Baptist Church and the Civil Rights Movement with his connection to the King family Right. And I'm saying this is what preaching is, yeah, yeah is. And I've kind of admired him, had a chance to have him preach at Monumental for the first time about three years ago. He was in town for a convention and called me. He called me and he came and preached. I say it was a great, great joy for me but he's one of those voices for me as well. And the Harvard Hooper, yes, yeah, dr Adams, yes. And because I use a manuscript, I was affirmed to him because you know, we were taught, we were taught particularly by non-manuscript teachers not to use manuscripts. So it reaffirmed that for me. And then you're a pastor, and that journey to Morehouse from Austin, texas, which is your home.

Speaker 2: 9:27

Yes, it was. You know my trajectory is a little different than most people. You know people. They will look at the educational pedigree. They'll see Morehouse Phi Beta Kappa. He has a doctorate from Columbia University, but I grew up in a single parent household, primarily reared the majority of my life by my grandparents, sand and Sedalia Johnson. But my mother had talked to at that time he was the assistant pastor, reverend Parker he's now the pastor of my home church and told him she said this is my son, I need you to take him up under your wings. And so he started this program called Project MAN, man being an acronym, meaning Men Act Now. And he was a Morehouse graduate and he was the one who introduced me to Morehouse.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Now, that was a little challenge. I didn't do well on standardized tests. My grades were solid. Had a little challenge. I didn't do well on standardized tests, my grades were solid, had a solid GPA. But I just didn't do well on SAT standardized tests. And so first time I took it I didn't do score well enough. And then Morehouse sent me a rejection letter and then I took it again. They sent me another rejection letter and the only reason I got into Morehouse is because Reverend Parker called, advocated for me and said y'all got to let this brother in and was admitted. And I never will forget when I learned that I was admitted to Morehouse, my counselor had called me to her office and she told me the news. And that particular day I happened to have on a Morehouse shirt and I ran throughout the halls telling everybody I got into Morehouse. So that's my little journey, but I always think about that. Here it is rejected twice, but only God only God.

Speaker 1: 11:21

And I notice how you honor Dr Parker. Yes, significant events. I had the privilege of being a part of your installation at Abyssinia last year. Yes, he was there. Yes, just that journey would not have taken place the way it did without him. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:45

Yeah, Every major decision I made in my life he has been a part of it, and his wife was the one who drove me from Austin all the way to Atlanta so I could see Morehouse college. So I love the Parkers. They they've been very influential in my life.

Speaker 1: 12:03

Yeah, yeah. Just just think about the fact, though, of being able to make that phone call, and if the call was not made, yeah, If you didn't have an advocate.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 12:20

I share kind of the same story. Wow, I was not a strong student in high school by choice. Yes, I just. You know, maybe that was kind of a rebellion. My dad was a pastor and I went through a little stage where, you know, if I get grown, I'm never going to church again. Right, right, right. And so maybe that was kind of a subtle way of rebelling by just not applying myself. But he kept talking about Morehouse being from the South. As he was from Alabama, morehouse was the cream of the crop for the black church in the South and so it was just a given that if I did go to college, that's where you were going to go.

Speaker 1: 13:08

That's where I was going to go, right, yeah, and so, when the time came, I applied to Morehouse, and I was rejected.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Wow, Because of Now were you the first college well, probably not the first college graduate in your family, right?

Speaker 1: 13:21

Of the fourth. Yeah, I'm the oldest. I'm the first. You're the first college graduate in your family, right Of the four. Yeah, I'm the oldest.

Speaker 2: 13:25

I'm the first, you're the first, I'm the first, too, get out. Yeah, it's something about when you're the first. You know, you, I know. For me, my mother was working three jobs to put me through school. She worked as a receptionist for the state controller's office and then she had her own floor business, and then she and my grandmother had this private duty nursing business Now we call them CNAs but my grandmother had the morning shift from 6 am to 6 pm and my mother had the evening shift from 6 pm to 6 am, and she worked that shift at night six days out of the week. And so when I went to Morehouse I knew I had to do well, because my mother was working three jobs. And there's a quote that I live by that says some men and women succeed because they are destined to, but most men and women succeed because they are determined to. There was nothing that was put into my hands that said I was going to be destined. I've just been determined every step of the way, the same experience, similar.

Speaker 1: 14:32

My dad wrote a letter to Benjamin Mays. Wow, he wrote a letter to Dr Mays. He wrote a letter to Dr Mays.

Speaker 2: 14:40

So he knew Dr.

Speaker 1: 14:40

Mays. He knew him from afar, that's enough, and wrote him and basically said please give my son a chance. Wow, and I got a letter back from Dean Brazil, who was the dean at the time, and so they admitted me on probation. So I had to maintain a solid average my first year and by the time I finished I was on the dean's list.

Speaker 2: 15:09

But that letter and I still have the letter.

Speaker 1: 15:12

I still have my rejection letters too because somebody spoke up for me let's talk about, in terms of the Morehouse experience, though, and intergenerational in terms of Of the prophetic influence that I think comes from Mays, but also prior to Mays, and it could be that without a Mays there might not have been a king, correct? Yeah, yeah, because of that connection, how he shaped all of those young minds, yes, how he shaped them. And that continued. And so I came through Morehouse doing the civil rights movement. King was in Atlanta co-pastoring SCLC.

Speaker 1: 16:06

It was a wonderful time to be in Atlanta, and so I caught, and my dad was not afraid to deal with social issues as well, right. And so I developed that thirst to preach sermons, that invitation that you had to be the baccalaureate speaker at Morehouse, and then the rejection because you had criticized the Obama administration, rightly so, fairly. So I mean, it was that's what we do, right, that's what prophets do. Then, to get the letter from the president of Morehouse, who is also a minister, yes, and that whole. Just talk about that, because it's at the heart of how we were taught and what we're supposed to do Not just go to college for an education and for a career, but to lift our people.

Speaker 2: 17:28

Yeah, yeah, one of the things I love about Morehouse the most is that it is the place that teaches you how to think critically. Yes, it's not that I had not thought critically before, but Morehouse exposes you to the great minds. Here it is. You have professors who are really deconstructing how this country was put together, who are really deconstructing how this country was put together. I remember this one professor talking about about apartheid in South Africa and he talked about how, when you build, he said apartheid is really a scaffold, he said. And after he said what a scaffold is used is to build a house. A build a building, he says, but after the building has been built, after the house has been built, after the house has been built, he said, then you can take down the scaffold. And that was that type of thinking that helped me to start looking at everything in life. How were things built? How did we get here? Why are things the way that they are? And that's what Morehouse helped me to do.

Speaker 2: 18:30

With Barack Obama, I was the first clergy person here in the city who supported him Came out. Everybody at that time here in Philadelphia was supporting Hillary Clinton and I had the audacity to say I was going to support him. I remember there were clergy persons here from black clergy who came to disrupt a meeting that I had because I was supporting Barack Obama and because I was such an early supporter and again everybody can look at Barack Obama now, but at that time you were going to support Hillary. He was the outlier, but I believed in him and I saw hope in him. I bought into the audacity of hope and the first term, you know, you kind of give a person a pass and then I supported him the second time. You know I have pictures with me with him with Air Force One in the backdrop. I supported him for his second run and it was in his first, early part of his first, his second term I should say first part of his second term that he was making appointments for his second term and I started to notice that he was not appointing anybody black and the only person that he had at that time was Eric Holder. And when you look at all of those cabinet positions, the only person that he had of color black was Eric Holder as attorney general. And so I wrote a piece that had nothing to do with Morehouse.

Speaker 2: 20:07

For those who know, I write for the Philadelphia Tribune and I've written several critical pieces of Democrats and Republicans, and so I wrote this piece called A President for Everyone Except Black People. And you know I was not trying to tear him down, but I was. What I learned about with President Obama is that he responds best when people are holding his feet to the fire. When you look at gay rights movements, they've held his feet to the fire. When you look at Latino community, during his administration, they held his feet to the fire. When you look at gay rights movements, they've held his feet to the fire. When you look at Latino community during his administration, they held his feet to the fire. And so that piece examined his cabinet members as compared to other administrations. And when you look at George Bush W Bush, he had more cabinet members than Barack Obama. And when you look at Bill Clinton, he had more.

Speaker 2: 20:58

And I laid it out, and you know, at that time, president John Wilson, he was a little upset because he had invited me to be the back-at-large speaker Morehouse president, morehouse president and Barack Obama. President Obama was going to be the commencement speaker, right? And he thought that I was right in that, because I was going to be the baccalaureate speaker. That's not who I am. I'm not afraid to speak truth to power. And one of the things that I learned during that period there are very few ministers who came out to support me. You, reverend Butts, dr Amos Brown, Delman Coates they all came out to support me but a lot of my friends, very close friends, did not support me and that was very painful, very hurtful. And I remember a person whose name I'm not going to mention. This person was trying to backdoor Now, mind you, morehouse guy but trying to backdoor and told John Wilson, president Wilson, the president of Morehouse, that I'll be the commencement speaker.

Speaker 2: 22:03

And when I found out about it I called him. I said, bro, why would you do that? I said we were taught at Morehouse to be prophetic. And he said something to me which I will never forget. He says sometimes the prophet has to stand alone. And that was my very first kind of really understanding what it means to be committed to prophetic preaching. And that's why I love Reverend Butts so much, because when I had to have this airport meeting with President Wilson and other board members of Morehouse College, they were trying to negotiate something.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Reverend Butts stood there with me and I share that because many young preachers, they don't want to take the tough stances, they don't want to stand alone.

Speaker 2: 22:49

And I'm used to standing alone, I'm used to not having support. But I believe that if you're going to be committed to this thing called prophetic preaching, that you have to be willing to take a stand. And Reverend Bud said something to me at some point in my ministerial journey. He said, kevin, one of the things I admire about you, he said, is that if you believe in something, he said, you're willing to stand for it and even die for it. And he told this story about Dr Mays talking about Dr King and how there were a group of ministers who had gotten together trying to tell Dr Martin Luther King Jr not to continue with his boycotts, and even his father was against him. And, as the story goes, that Dr Mays stood up and spoke for him and because he said, if Martin believes in this, I'm going to stand with him. And that's Reverend Butts told me why he stood with me, as related to the Morehouse situation, is because he said it reminded me of Dr Mays standing with Dr King.

Speaker 1: 23:57

Yeah, and that's where it comes from. Yes, it comes from Benjamin Mays. And that not being afraid to stand up for what you believe in, believe in how did that turn out in terms of the resolution.

Speaker 2: 24:25

Yeah, so the resolution.

Speaker 1: 24:25

So at that point you were saying I don't have to do this. Right, Right, Right, Right Right right, right, right.

Speaker 2: 24:32

Yeah, they wanted me to. President Wilson wanted me to back away and I refused to do that that's not who I am and so they wanted me to share the stage with others and I said you asked me to be the back of large speaker, so I'm going to be that, but I will give them credit. They did a doozy on me. They did have other people speak, but I was still the spokesperson for Baccalaureate. But what it shared with me and I wrote this very critical letter that got published in the Washington Post.

Speaker 2: 25:09

It was a four-page letter and I laid out clearly what Morehouse is and what type of institution that it is. And it is an institution that trains you to think critically. And for me, the reason why this was such an issue is because either you're going to support profits or you're not. Either you're going to believe in to support prophets or you're not Right. Either you're going to believe in what you teach or you're not. And what I appreciated was there were a lot of alumni, and that's how I was able to speak is because the alumni rose up and said Kevin is in the Morehouse tradition, that's right.

Speaker 1: 25:49

I remember that yeah, especially Amos Brown, oh.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Dr Amos Brown, he came out forcefully. Yes, sir.

Speaker 1: 25:56

Oh yeah, I can see him now. And Amos was, I think he was a senior when I was a freshman was Dr May's driver, Wow.

Speaker 2: 26:09

I wish I could have been in that car.

Speaker 1: 26:12

Yes, yes, can you imagine? So he's going to the, taking them to the airport, yeah, picking them up. Going to pick up some of the speakers we heard in Sale Hall there was no King Chapel at the time Right, right right In Sale Hall, picking them up. And he's the same, that prophetic, and he carries weight too. It does In terms carries weight too. It does In terms of what he said it does. But I think it goes back to being able to take a stand in that tradition and I think there's been a shift in black colleges how they see their role, right colleges how they see their role, particularly when you start having leadership, that's, I would say, corporate, business oriented and not the preacher prophet, even though this happened during the presidency of a minister.

Speaker 2: 27:13

Yeah, I mean, our church has really supported black colleges, hbcus, and sadly we don't support them the way we used to, yeah, and so now they have become reliant upon corporate dollars and of course, when you start getting that type of money, it does come with a cost, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 27:31

Absolutely. Yeah. I'll quote here Morehouse doesn't just educate, it shapes, that's it. Yes, sir, it shapes, it shapes, and I can see what that has, that has shaped in you In terms of the going back to Dr Moss. Here you are being mentored by two of the great ones, otis Moss Jr, who we talked about earlier. Then you go to New York. Yes, and again, butts was, if you went to Morehouse, come on in, brothers Right, get in my table. Because that's the way we are.

Speaker 2: 28:13

Yeah, and let me tell you a little interesting story about Dr Mosca. This is again. These are kind of nuggets that people don't tell you about. I was a chaplain assistant and Dean Carter was another Dean. Lawrence Carter, the Dean of the chapel of Morehouse college, Another retiring.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Yeah, what 40.

Speaker 2: 28:30

Yeah, a long time, 40 plus years. What's?

Speaker 1: 28:33

interesting for you is perhaps two of the greatest influences in terms of shaping Morehouse Dr Mays and Dean Carter, not Morehouse men, not a Morehouse man.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Both of them, isn't that?

Speaker 1: 28:51

something. That's something. But Dr Mays gave us the vision of what a Morehouse man is, and Carter has shaped generations of students who became such as yourself. Yeah, I mean when you look at, and he shows up also in great moments in the lives of those that he mentored.

Speaker 2: 29:20

No, agreed. When you look at some of the major churches in America, dean Carter's fingerprint is all over it Raphael, ebenezer Baptist Church, otis Moss, the Third Trinity, united Church of Christ, me at Abyssinian, and then you look at the new brother who became pastor of Third Baptist. All of those are influences of, or Jamal Bryant. All of those are influences of Dean Lawrence Carter.

Speaker 1: 29:50

Yeah, yeah, that's right, I forgot. The brother who succeeded Amos Brown is a Morehouse man as well. He is, yes, and isn't there one who's pastoring where Buster Soares?

Speaker 2: 30:01

was yes, dante, quick yeah from California. California, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so you're at Abbot Senior. Now on staff, you come to Philadelphia. The word imagine has helped shape. You obviously Start a church called Dare to Imagine, in preparation perhaps for where you are now. I mean that's part of the journey. Talk about that experience of and any advice to, I say, young pastors. I mean there could be older pastors who would start a new work, but I doubt.

Speaker 2: 30:59

It's not for the faint of heart.

Speaker 1: 31:00

That's really daring to imagine, especially in these times, and making a decision. This is what the Lord wants me to do. I'm going to do this and what you have made out of that in the time that you were there.

Speaker 2: 31:18

What I would share is that every part of your journey helps to prepare you for the next, and sometimes you don't always fully understand it. Sometimes you don't see how God is moving and it's only when you get to. In my case, I'm 51 years old now and you see, okay, god, you will prepare me for this moment every step of the way. I enjoyed my season there at Bright Hope for seven years, but when God made abundantly clear that the vision he had given me for the church was different than some of the leaders there clear that the vision he had given me for the church was different than some of the leaders there made a decision to transition and I was really like Abraham. I just went. Genesis 12 says go to the land that I will show. You Did not know where that was going to be, just stepped out on faith and ended up starting a church in the house with 20 people. They came to hear the vision and you know it's easy to look at what Dare to Imagine has become. But I remember that day like it was just on November 30th 2014,. And wondering would these 20 people came to the house, really buy in? Would they really get behind and help this thing take life and take some wings. And what that taught me during that period was really that I could do anything.

Speaker 2: 32:44

Because, starting a church from scratch, we didn't have a cross, we didn't have communion trays, we didn't have offering envelopes, we had no building, we had nothing. And I remember going to this Christian bookstore out on Shelton Ham Avenue and I literally had a nervous breakdown, crying profusely. As I was purchasing the communion trays, said God, we don't even have communion trays, how is this going to work? And I remember using my own credit card to purchase the communion trays. But I believed in what the Lord was going to do. And actually the name Dare to Imagine came from a capital campaign I started at Bright Hope, right. It was called the Dare to Imagine Capital Campaign, right.

Speaker 1: 33:33

And you had that banner yes, right Behind was called the Dare to Imagine Capital Campaign Right and you had that banner yes, right Behind the pulpit.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Yes, I remember that, and when God made it clear it was time to transition, I just kind of prayed about God. You know, what should this name be? And Dare to Imagine just came up and really what the whole thing about daring to imagine it was really to try to help people to think bigger, to understand that God can do something really great in your life, Because many times we just think too small, and I know from my own life. I have had so many instances where I've had to believe in myself and imagine new possibilities. And that's what I'm really on a mission to do to help others to dare to imagine and to live their best life as well.

Speaker 1: 34:17

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Speaker 1: 34:49

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Speaker 2: 36:11

Yeah, the Dare to Imagine. Again, experience forced me to think about church differently. I knew I could not start the Dare to Imagine Missionary Baptist Church. That was just not going to happen Right. And so one of the things that I challenged my team with, I said we are not going to think outside the box, we're going to think as if there is no box. And it was really those marching orders that really began to shape from technology to the way in which we thought about things theologically, because we firmly believed that we could not think outside the box, because when you think outside the box you've already put yourself in a box, and so we had to think as if there was no box, no parameters, and that's when we really started to embrace technology from you know before I remember this one preacher.

Speaker 2: 37:08

I was in the grocery store and he said to me what type of name is for a church called Dare to Imagine? You should have called your church St John or St Matthew, you know, Baptist Church. And I just listened to him. And then, after COVID hit, I saw him in another grocery store and he said man, I take back everything I said.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Now all of us are daring to imagine so, but I just think that, you know, many times in church we tend to look at this as the way we have to do it, and part of the approach was, in order to reach a new generation, you got to try some new things, and that's one of the things I realized, not only just with the work that we did there at Dare to Imagine, but also how that work at Dare to Imagine prepared me for the work I'm now doing at Abyssinian, Just because Abyssinian, yes, has been around as one of our oldest churches in America, founded in 1808. But the reality is is that every church has to evolve, and so I know that God has called me there to help even Abyssinian evolve.

Speaker 1: 38:18

When you look at the concept of teamwork because you mentioned team- yes.

Speaker 1: 38:30

And the importance of that in terms of a model of ministry that many pastors are not comfortable with is that we have to do the whole thing, all the thinking, all the planning Right, but it's the concept of team Moses, yes, the advice Jethro gives to Moses, and being comfortable with the thoughts of others and the critique of others, because it's the team that's going to make this work, and not just so that, even if you're no longer the pastor, everything is in place for the work to continue. Right, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:22

Yeah, and that's the team part is key. Yeah, and that's the team part is key. And you know, dare to imagine would not be what it is if I did not have the team member of my wife, kimya, there with me. She believed our children, they believed in it, the membership, they believed in it, and one of the things I often try to share with you, know others, is that you can't do this by yourself. John Donne said there, no person is an island unto him or herself, and I firmly believe that if you want to do something great, that it has to be beyond you. And I've also tried to build ministries so that, even if I am not there, that the ministry continues because you built the teams that help everything continue to move forward.

Speaker 1: 40:10

Right, right, talk about. You mentioned your wife, lovely woman, and your children. You've always prioritized family, prioritize family. What are the challenges of being a pastor and a husband and father just came off vacation. Family Right Went to Egypt. Yes, sir, of how have you give us some ideas in terms of the importance of family in the life of a pastor?

Speaker 2: 40:57

Yeah, what I will say is what people may see now if they look at my social media posts. It's totally different than the way I started out in ministry. Now I'm more family focused. When I first started out in ministry my priorities were not right and I admit that my priorities were God, church, then family. And it wasn't until I was at Bright Hope and there was going to be a funeral on.

Speaker 2: 41:27

The family wanted to be on a Saturday and I had already missed a number of my son's soccer games and I made a commitment to him that I would always attend his tournaments and I never will forget I had said to the family. I said can we do it on a Friday? I said because I need to attend my son's soccer game. And the woman said to me I never forget this. She said there, I needed to attend my son's soccer game. And the woman said to me I'll never forget this. She said there will always be another soccer game.

Speaker 2: 41:51

And it was at that moment that I realized that they would never make my family a priority. No church will that. The pastor has to make his family a priority. And it was at that moment I started to shift. And another thing my wife started to do she would do stuff without me, like you're not going to be here, I'm going to go home, and so I had to catch up. And so once I started to make them a priority, it shifted everything in my life. My children when I look at their success now, you know son, having graduated from Morehouse and NYU, two daughters at Spelman it is because I got my priorities right and I'm glad that it was early enough in my life that I was able to get it right, because I can only imagine what would have happened if I still had it wrong.

Speaker 1: 42:40

Right, it would have been too late, too late, too late To do anything differently, and I think that's the model that has emerged, or should emerge not the God-church family, but that God-family. Dare to imagine going to Abyssinia. I think I mentioned earlier about you going. I mentioned you being on staff, but now you're going back to be the pastor of the church where you were on staff. Did you ever, I mean, dare to imagine? Did you ever? And I know personally the love and respect that Dr Butts had for you because we talked about that before he died yes, sir, but now you're going back. I mean, what is that like? And first of all, the decision that I'm going to do this because you didn't have to Right, right, right.

Speaker 1: 43:44

I think as pastors we look at where we are, what is known, what we have comfort zone, and you know pretty much your future can be solid where you are, particularly after what you've done. Right, but to leave that and go to Abyssinia, what was that like in terms of God's leading? And did you have to think about it a long time? You know this story about the preacher who told his wife he was called to this big church and she said well, what you going to do? He said I'm going to pray about it. She said well, you pray while I pack.

Speaker 2: 44:39

Well, that was not my story. Yeah, it was. You know, again, this is my third time being back at Abyssinia. I started out as an intern when I was at Union Theological Seminary, then went to go work with Dr Otis Moss Jr in Cleveland and came back as the assistant pastor of the church at Abyssinian. And this time was a little different. You know one by this time married, have three children, everybody's settled. We have a house that we love, we did a lot of renovation work to the house and my wife has been pretty settled in her career. So this was why are we doing this? I don't care if it is Abbotson, why are we doing this? I don't care if it is Abbotson, why are we doing this?

Speaker 2: 45:30

And there's a feeling that I've always had whenever I've had to make major decisions, and it's like when I started preaching when I was 16 years old. If I feel that feeling, then I know it's of God and it sent me into. I never forget the first time Reverend Butts reached out to me and he asked me to come and preach in August of 2021. And I preached and he sent me a text and the text simply said great job today, great seeing you and the family. Then he says I have people asking about you in Atlanta, san Francisco, new York, about your availability and I said availability to preach and he responded back he said no negro to be the pastor. And I was like, okay, I wasn't thinking about that. And you know, that's when the prayers started, you know, and I really had to go to God in prayer because when you start a church from scratch, literally with nothing, you pour your life into it and you pour your resources. That campus dare to imagine. You know we put down $50,000. I mean, over the course of the nine years I was there, my wife and I have given over $400,000 to the church. So this was not something that was just lightly that you walk away from.

Speaker 2: 46:56

And then also just knowing, you know, going to Abbot Sending, which is a historic traditional Baptist church, and knowing that you may have to deal with some challenges that come. And it was really after prayer and I even had a conversation with my family and I asked them all what they thought. And from my wife, two daughters and son, all of them were not for me going back, except for my daughter, layla, and Layla said everybody was crying as we were thinking about this. She said, daddy, if God is telling you to do this, then you got to do it.

Speaker 2: 47:38

And I share that because, as great as Abyssinian is, as world renowned as it is City, and is as world renowned as it is, it was something that really had to be bathed in prayer. And I knew that our baby girl, who just finished high school, that that meant that she was going to have to make a sacrifice, as I was going to have to make a sacrifice, because I would not be here for her senior year, because I would have to commute back and forth to New York. And so it's been. I've enjoyed the journey, I'm having a great time, but it is something that you really got to know that God has called you to do, because otherwise it could potentially destroy your family. Yeah, and people don't think about that in ministry. No, they don't. They don't think about the cost to the family, to the children, and, trust me, I've gone through my fair share of experiencing what it means to be pastor of Abyssinian Baptist Church.

Speaker 1: 48:44

Yes, I know, I can imagine what you, I can dare to imagine. That's right, what you mean by that. I'm just saying asking easier because of the structure you left and put in place, because I imagine there could be a certain amount of you know here. These people have gathered here because of me, yeah, right here because of me, yeah, you know Right. But the fact of where, dare to Imagine is now, I mean maybe year one, year two, right, you know, god's still working. I suppose, because it's been year one or year two might have been even more problematic for you to leave, right, but where it is now, you left it strong. Yes, and that's what we do. We're on assignment and I don't know if people always understand it.

Speaker 1: 50:02

When I left my first church, I didn't have to leave. Everything was going well. Built a new church, right, I'm here for life. If I didn't have to leave, everything was going well. Built a new church, right, I'm here for life if I want to be Right. And then, when I'm announcing that I'm leaving and I'm crying, people crying deacons come back in to study. What is it? What can we do to you know? Is it money? Yeah, what is it? What can we do to, you know, is it, is it money, you know? And I say my response was if, if, if I had to go for less, I've still got to go Right, right, right, yeah, and you just said something.

Speaker 2: 50:36

So for me you know, you've been pastor of a church You've always had to leave a church to go to another church the difference with my process from dare to Imagine to Abyssinian. It became public and so I had to be honest with the people. I never forget. There was an article that came out in January of 2024 that announced me as one of the finalists and I had gotten. I was at this coffee shop and I had to end up putting together something to tell the congregation, because we live in an age of social media, so they're going to find out.

Speaker 2: 51:20

So I had to walk them through and help them to understand that all pastors are simply stewards. All we are here to do is to serve for the season that God has given us. Sometimes we have longer seasons, sometimes we have shorter seasons, but we're stewards. This is not our church, it's God's church. Even though God used me as the founder, it's not mine. It belongs to God. And, just like you know, when you look at Abyssinian, reverend Butts was there for a season. Dr Proctor was there for a season. Adam Clayton, powell Jr and Sr were there fora season. All of us are just stewards, and when you understand that you're really just a soldier in God's army, it helps you make the transition a little bit better.

Speaker 1: 52:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, talking to Marvin McNichol, who was a good friend of mine over the years and when he served with Dr Proctor. He's talking about all of these giants that had to go to the airport to pick them up, that stood at the pulpit of Abyssinian Baptist Church over the years. Give me some names of preachers and not, but just leaders who have stood there. And now you're standing there and for those of us looking at that, of course the view is different than yours, but nonetheless it is a great. You know God has done great things. But when you're standing there in that pulpit, if anybody's seen it, it's almost a podium.

Speaker 1: 53:07

Yes, you can't hide. You ain't putting glasses and pictures of water and all kinds of stuff on it, because it's just. You're just there, bare in front of the people, not hidden. Yeah, and the people who have stood there from the Adam Clayton Powell days. For black people to know that history of how Abyssinian was made from the first Powell not Adam Clayton, but his daddy yes, His father was the one who was the real preacher, yes, and builder was the one who was the real preacher, yes, and builder, well, yes, well, given Adam Jr, it has to be the father.

Speaker 1: 53:57

Right, right, right. But again then, the greatness is not just based on great preaching, right, you know we want to great preaching, right, you know we want to think that, right. But there's a whole lot of other things that make churches great. But that whole legacy of where you stand now, just in closing, just what does that mean to you? How do you see the future there? But also of the black church and taking it into a season of kind of a digital social media piece. That was there to some extent, based on what you have done. You're taking it even further 300 people have joined since you were installed.

Speaker 2: 54:59

Yes, just in closing, just say a word about that Every time I step in that pulpit, step on that marble, I feel the ancestors, I feel everyone who has come before me, male and female, who have stood there, who have preached there, who have proclaimed the word, who have just given a prayer, and I know that I'm standing up on their shoulders. You know to think about Adam Clayton Powell senior, adam Clayton Powell junior, dr Proctor, dr Butts, think about Fidel Castro having spoken from that pulpit, jesse Jackson and his heyday. When you think about most presidents of the United States have spoken from their governors, congresspersons, maxine Waters, and I can kind of go down the list of different people who have spoken there. It is an awesome responsibility and I can tell you, now that I am there, it's very difficult to get me out of the pulpit to go and preach somewhere else, because I really just only want to preach at Abbotston. I love the church, I love how it feels to share, not just with them but to share with the world, but also when it comes to the awesome responsibility. And that awesome responsibility is that we still got to have a prophetic voice out there for the people, and it could not have been at a more interesting time than with this current administration and one of my.

Speaker 2: 56:40

I have several sermons that have gone viral, but one of them was right after this year started, in 2025. And all that 47 was doing to bring about fear. And I remember preaching this sermon called we Ain't Scared. And I preached another sermon, called you Will Not Erase Us. And it has become beyond clear to me that the Abyssinian pulpit is still strong. It has become beyond clear to me that God has called me not only to serve the church, but also to be a prophetic voice for the world.

Speaker 2: 57:20

And the beauty of using social media because Reverend Buzz did not use it he was not a fan of social media, but because I do embrace it.

Speaker 2: 57:30

It has become an opportunity to take the messages and to share them with the world. And one of the things that I am going to do, now that our platform is really growing, is not just for people to hear my voice, but to hear the voices of those before. You know, I'm going back now and telling the team go and get some of Reverend Butts' sermon so we can play that, because, while he may not have been a fan of it, I want to keep his memory alive and social media will help us do that. I want to play, you know, clips from Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Again, the social media to me. If you use it right, it can become a great educational tool for generations, especially in this world right now, with this man trying to erase our history and erase our legacy. We plan to use it as a way not only to speak to the current generation, but to remind generations of today from whence we have come.

Speaker 1: 58:29

Yeah, thank you so much. And pastors today, particularly our younger pastors, I mean they may not pastor in Abyssinia, but if you have 25 people, the prophetic message still has to come forth. That's right. That's right Especially, and I think we have somehow got civil rights fatigue or something and moved away from kind of a preaching now that is more culturally informed than prophetically informed and not speaking on behalf of people. We were talking earlier about this minister who was bashing pastors who were in fraternities. So that means they were bashing you and me, right, right, right, saying we were going to hell, right, right, and all of the issues facing us today. I mean we're really going to talk about that, yeah, yeah and not. You know what is he talking about prophetically in terms of what's happening in America?

Speaker 2: 59:41

What have you said about these policies? What have you said about these Republicans? What have you said about gerrymandering? Yes, you know you want to talk about fraternities. We got a whole host of other issues we got to deal with.

Speaker 1: 59:50

That are part of the black experience and came out of Christian values and can become an arm of the church because they're doing work, inspired by the church, that the church is not supposed to do. Right, but again, how petty we will be on social media about things that don't matter and that never concern Jesus, right, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:00:23

Yeah, no, it's an interesting time and I think that we just need more strong voices that are out there, because this administration, if we think it's bad now, they're just getting started discussion that we've had today and I'm grateful to our special guest, reverend Dr Kevin Johnson, a good brother, good friend, my Morehouse brother, yes, sir, and always good to see you again and congratulate you. Thank you, blessings to you on the great work that you're doing, you and your church, and wonderful family. And if you find this podcast of value, we ask that you be sure to subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you won't miss any episodes. Remain connected with us. May God bless you.