Ep 10 - Wounded But Still Walking: A Conversation with Bishop Timothy J. Clarke

What happens when your life is consecrated to ministry before you’re even born? In this powerful episode, Bishop Timothy J. Clarke shares the story of a calling shaped by spiritual legacy, personal loss, and unwavering faithfulness.

From growing up in Brooklyn—slipping into funerals just to hear great preaching—to becoming one of the most respected voices in the Church of God, Bishop Clarke reflects on the mentors who formed him, the theology that grounds him, and the pain that changed him. Now in his 43rd year pastoring First Church of God in Columbus, OH, he offers rare wisdom on leadership, grief, preaching without performance, and the sacred bond between pastor and people.

This conversation explores:

• What it means to lead one church for over four decades
• How personal tragedy shaped his preaching and pastoral care
• The power of mentorship, brotherhood, and spiritual covering
• Encouragement for bi-vocational pastors and smaller congregations
• Why “God doesn’t bless churches—He blesses pastors”

Whether you're leading a congregation of hundreds or holding things together with limited resources, this episode will encourage you to stay faithful, lead with integrity, and embrace the call—even when it still costs.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introduction
• 9:40 Meeting Through Charles Booth
• 32:26 Timothy Clark's Call to Ministry
• 53:46 Journey from New York to Ohio
• 1:11:12 Navigating Personal Loss

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God, our Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this episode of the Ministry Exchange with Dr Mapson. This podcast is designed to help equip pastors and leaders in the church for more effective ministry in our contemporary society, by recognizing the tradition that has brought us, but also recognizing the need to serve this present age. We are delighted today to welcome to our podcast a dear friend of many years who is the senior pastor of First Church of God in Columbus, ohio, bishop Timothy J Clark, who pastors one of the influential churches not only in the city of Columbus, but in his denomination and in the nation as well. He is the founder and chief prelate of the Berean Fellowship, which is an assembly that seeks to mentor small to mid-sized churches as well as new pastors. He is the recipient of many honorary degrees and he has been inducted into the Morehouse College Board of Preachers, which is a great honor because it is Morehouse College, of course. He's the author of several books, including Bind Up your Broken Heart and Celebrating the Family, and he is also the former president and vice president and current chairman of the General Assembly of the Church of God.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:49

Welcome, bishop Clark, and we will try to call each other Bishop and Doctor, even though it's Jesse and Tim. That's what I like the most. That's what I like the most. That's what I like the most as well. Again, welcome. And I do want to begin with the story of our coming together for that trip in New York.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 2:18

Yes, sir, yes, sir. Well, let me first of all say Dr Mabson and that may be the last time I use the official title. Let me first of all say Dr Mabson, and that may be the last time I use the official title, but let me just say how excited and delighted I am, not just to be on the podcast in the official capacity, but just how excited I am that I get to be with you and that I get to sit here and to share with you certainly with your son, my nephew, and all that the two of you are doing to broaden the world of ministry. And I want to say this it isn't just for young pastors. Quite a few of us long into truth. Pastors watch this podcast too, and we're being blessed by it. So thank you for the honor of being here, where so many sages have already sat and shared with you, but also for the honor of being your friend and your brother for this fellowship. You mentioned what brought us together, and we were laughing on the way here about our friendship and brotherhood with the late Dr Charles Edward Booth, and we always say, when the two of us talk, that Booth was the glue that not only bound us together but brought many of us together. All of us met because of the broad reach of Charles Edward Booth and that's how you and I connected. Now, I knew of you before I met you sort of like the scripture. I had heard of you in the hearing of the ear, and then my eyes beheld you Because Booth talked about you in such glowing terms. You were there in Elizabeth at that time and he always talked about your great friendship and brotherhood. You would actually come. I don't know if you remember this. You would come to preach his anniversary in January, that's right, and that was a cold January. Oh listen, there's only you can get cold in Columbus in January, and Bishop Ross was preaching that afternoon. They had asked me to come be a surprised speaker to pay tribute to him, and so I came that afternoon in the office.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 4:44

Later you, booth and I, were talking and we were planning to go to Dr Leslie Wainwright's funeral the next day in Harlem, right, and you were leaving. So we were on, wasn't it People's Airline? We were on. Yes, it was People's Airline, which no longer exists $49 special, yes, sir. And we all flew together to Newark Airport. You drove us over to Harlem. I will never forget this.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 5:17

Ruth was on the program Right. You and I sat in the balcony, sat in the balcony, the peon seat, and you leaned over to me and said our brother's on the program and we sat together in the service. Later we walked over to Sylvia's. Yes, had smothered pork, chop, smothered pork, oh my goodness. And then we went to see my mother, who, of course, lived in Manhattan Right, worked at Columbia University School of Social Work. We went to Riverside. We went to Riverside Cathedral of St John the Divine Right, st John and Grant's Tomb, Right right. And then we drove back over to Elizabeth. We went now you may not remember this part of the story we went to your mom and dad's house, yeah, and I sat on the floor.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 6:09

You and Booth, I think, sat on the couch and your dad regaled us with stories of his early ministry. We left there and went to a soul food restaurant, went to Stewart's Stewart's, stewart's in Newark, in Newark. And then from there you took us to the airport and to this day that is still one of the seminal days of my life. I can recount it. I can replay it almost moment by moment, from getting to the airport, flying to Newark, driving over the George Washington Bridge and spending the day together. What a day it was. And that cemented that trio between you, booth and I, and by God's grace, it has lasted until this day. Even though Booth no longer walks among us, his legacy still lives in our hearts and in our hearts.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:08

Absolutely, and we can't be together three or four minutes without, and we could talk about him for two days straight, if not long.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 7:17

Yes, sir, if not long. Yes, sir, if we could regale each other with Booth stories.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:23

Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Well, again, it is such a pleasure for me to have you on this podcast. Let's begin talking about your early ministry being raised in New York. Yes, sir, what was it like in terms of the call, Because, again, the call is so important in the black church experience. Yes sir, you can't go out there without being able to articulate a call. Yes, sir, your conversion. Of course, that's first thing, but next is, uh, the call to ministry. What was that like? Um? And then we'll kind of go from there, you know, from from there to ohio. Yes, sir, and how you? How you got there? Because I want to also ask about the denomination. Yes, sir, and, and you know, I think the marvelous thing about friendships, our friendships, they transcend denominations. I mean, it never comes up, Never.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 8:35

Never.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 8:36

Never, never, a fact, never a fact, no, sir. Never a fact, no, sir. But I want to talk about that because I think we need to know a little bit more about the Church of God, because we always want to talk about Church of God in Christ. Yes, sir, which is not the same. Not the same, those beginnings in New York.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 8:57

Yes, sir, interesting story, and I will try to make it as brief as possible because I know there's a lot of ground we want to cover. I was born in Brooklyn, new York, and I say this and I'm very mindful of how it comes across, but I do think it's part of my story and it's important. My mom and dad were not married. They were never married. Mom and dad were not married. They were never married. So when my older sister and I were born, our mother and father were not married.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 9:31

My mother grew up in the church of God. Our great-grandparents were some of the founders of our home church and our grandparents were very active. Thus my mother and two aunts, her two sisters, grew up in that church and were involved in ministry. My mother served as president of the state youth for the Church of God. She met my dad. She met our dad and fell in love with him and fell in love with him, and out of that came my sister and I.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 10:08

And when I turned 18, my mother wrote me a letter on my birthday, march 30th, when I turned 18. And she said in this letter and to this moment I can still see her writing and I can see every word. She said to me today is your 18th birthday and there's some things I want to share with you. And she started talking about she and our dad and how they came to know each other and how she felt she had disappointed her parents and the saints when she became pregnant out of wedlock. And she said to me. She said when I had your sister Pam, I thought maybe your dad would marry me, but he didn't. And when I found out, I was pregnant with you and Jesse. This touches me to this moment. She said I asked God to give me a son because I thought my father was West Indian, he was from Trinidad. She said I thought that if I gave him a son, that would make him love me and marry me. And I told God if you give me a son, I will give him back to you. And then she said I can see the line. She said that is why I named you Timothy, because Timothy means honoring God. I gave you to God in my womb. And she said even though your dad and I never got married, I never took back what I said to God and I'm saying that to say that that formed and forged so much of my life and it helped me understand how, from the earliest moment of my life, when you're cognizant that you are going to be something in life, I always knew, jesse, I was going to be a preacher. But I could never understand it until my 18th birthday when I read that. I just knew, as the old folks would say in my knower, I just knew I was going to be a preacher. There's never been a conscious moment when I didn't know that. But then there has to be that moment of call of clarity.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 12:42

And I remember reading a book I think it's not the autobiography, it's the biography of the late Dr William Holmes Borders. You know him from your days at Morehouse, at Wheat Street Church here in Atlanta, and I think the first edition was called Handyman of the Lord. And in that book, around the first or second chapter, dr Borders relates his call and he said there were no shooting stars, there were no claps or peals of thunder, there was no audible voice. There was just a knowledge and awareness that God wanted to use me.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 13:30

And I can't tell you how reading that solidified and concretized my sense of culture. It was affirmation, because I had heard the whole preacher's talking about all this dramatics? Yeah, absolutely, and I didn't have any of that. But then I look back when I read that letter from my mom, that that sense of awareness and assurance that God wanted to use me, that his hand was on me, that's what solidified the call for me. And I have never and it's hard to say it, I've been preaching 50 some years now. I've never doubted. There have been times I've doubted almost everything in my life. I have never doubted my call.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:18

Yeah.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 14:19

Never.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:38

And you know, I think this the the journey, our journey, has been similar in the fact that I don't have a story of running, you know, or you know you got to slap me a few times before or not wanting to preach.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 14:44

I think I've always wanted to do that, but for me, being a preacher son I didn't's son I didn't want to preach because it was expected, yes, sir, and because people will say to a preacher's kid, like they say to my boys you know, you're going to be a preacher, like your dad is right. And so I went to Morehouse, unsure, wanting to, but waiting for the call. And it was in my dormitory room one night, when my two roommates were out. And I'm praying, you know, every night for God to tell me something. I was going to go into teaching or music, and one particular night I got on my knees and when I got up there was this sense of calm For me, that was the call. It was no thunder and lightning or anything like that, but that same thing is something that I felt was always in me, even in moments when I thought I wanted to rebel.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 15:43

Yes, sir, but it was there. It's so funny you said that because I used to think, because I would hear preachers say I ran from the calling and I would say what's wrong with me? Because I was running to the calling. I was running to it and I thought, well, maybe I need to rebel a little bit, but there was nothing in me that wanted to do that. There was this awareness, god's hand, and that's why my mother's letter was so helpful to me. Yeah, because I never could fully understand it, that there was something different about me as a kid. I loved church. Yeah, I loved preachers and preaching, so did preaching. Listen, don't tell anybody. This is just when you and I.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 16:32

I grew up in Far Rockaway, right, so our 2109 Namioke Street is where I grew up. First Baptist Church was right across the street from my house, 1510 Redfern Avenue. Across the street from my house, 1510 Redfern Avenue, the Reverend Dr H Oliver Scott, sr DD, was the pastor. Our church, first Church of God, was 1425 Beach Channel Drive and then H Kelly Temple Church of God in Christ. 1801 Redfern Avenue was this way, so it was almost a triangle, and Bethel AME church on the corner of Red Fern Avenue and Beach 11 was right up the street. I would pass by one of those churches and if I saw a hearse outside I'd go in there just to hear the preacher preach to you. I didn't have to know who it was. That's how drawn I was to church and to preaching. I would I look back now and say you were a weird kid. I wanted to be in church and I wanted to hear preaching all of my life, yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 17:39

Yeah, talk about your mentors, because you know, one of the things I believe is that when we stand, we stand with other voices that are speaking also. Who were those?

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 17:57

voices for you. You know, one of my mentors biblically is the prophet Amos. And here is why, in his autobiographical statement early on in the book, amos says I was not a prophet nor the son of a prophet. I was a dresser of sycamore trees. And then this great line, and the Lord took me and when I first read that I thought that's me. I'm not a son of a prophet, I'm not the grandson of a preacher. The Lord took me. But one of the things the Lord did for me was give me men in my life who were mentors and spiritual fathers, starting with my childhood pastor as chair of the trustee board of that church. Dad was a young man when he came there and grandpa took him under his wing. Dad would always say but Bailey would always look out for me, my grandmother would cook for him. He loved fish and my grand I think that's why I love fish to this day my grandmother would fry fish for him and he'd come to the house and eat. My mother would type correspondence for him. So when our grandfather died, august of 1962, dad, really out of love for our grandfather, took me under his wing and he really became my dad in every sense of the word. But there was also Dr Scott Pop Scott at First Baptist, elder Kelly Pop Kelly at H Kelly Temple, church of God in Christ. Dr William Aaron at Congregational Church of God in Harlem. Dr Evans Bromley Marshall at Lafayette Avenue Church of God. Those men mentored me. But now here's what you got to remember. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it's just the facts and the words of Joe Friday.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 20:23

I grew up in New York City in the days of the royalty of the pulpit Booth and I used to laugh about this. On any given Sunday in New York, up in Harlem, in Brooklyn, in Rockaway, we had the subway system and on any given Sunday you could see a nation coming up out the ground going to their churches on any given Sunday. So in Rockaway you had Dad and Pop Scott Pop Kelly, pop Leith. They were preaching every Sunday. Over in Jamaica you had at Calvary Baptist Church Dr Walter Stockholm Penn, calvary Baptist Church, dr Walter, stockholm, penn.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 21:10

At Amity you had Dr James R Moore At Allen, where our brother Floyd Flake was. You had Bishop Donald Ming. At that time he was Dr Ming. You go to Brooklyn, oh, brooklyn, don't go to Brooklyn, don't go to Brooklyn. You had Dr Sandy Farrell, laura Bray, dr William Augustus Jones, dr Gardner, calvin Taylor, dr Robert Alexander Laws, dr Hilton Lancaster, james Bishop, fd Watson. Yes, you had a plethora of the greatest black preaching ever assembled Up in Harlem. You had Oakley Maxwell, you had Adam Clayton Powell Jr. You later had Dr Wyatt T Walker. Dr Connie Stamps was at Metropolitan, my God. So I was breathing. The ear that had been saturated with the preaching voices of those giants and I got to know them and be around them. And because I was crazed boy that's what they would call you, that's crazed boy they always let me in because of their love for dad and their respect for him.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 22:23

Yeah, in because of their love for dad and their respect for him. Yeah, and it was transcended denominations, because you're listening to voices which may not have always been accepted in some circles, but you were able to listen to all these voices that fed into you Over at Refuge Temple in Harlem.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 22:43

You had Bishop Willie Lee Bonner, and I mean Bishop Bonner was one of the greatest preaching voices you ever want to hear. You had Roy Brown and Huey Rogers, so you had apostolic church of God in Christ. Baptist and Methodist Alfred Dunstan of the AME Zion yeah, so how could you not preach? And Methodist Alfred Dunstan of the AME Zion AME Zion, yeah, oh man, yeah, yes. So how could you not preach, Right With all that preaching going on around you? Yeah, yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 23:14

Yeah, Take us from New York to Ohio. Was it an appointment or how does that process?

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 23:24

work.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 23:24

It's a great story and I tell people this now. I can say it now more publicly. I believe that the only church I was meant to pastor is First Church, columbus, where I've been for 43 years. But I spent four years in Warren, ohio, and God blessed it. And let me tell you why God blessed it because I was obedient. Here's the story I got married April 2nd 1977.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 23:58

Around June or July, dad said to me he said, tim, I've got to go to Warren, but I don't feel up to doing a whole revival. I want you to go with me. You preach, I'll teach every night from six to seven, but I want you to preach. I just don't feel up to preaching every night. So what do you do? You say yes, as in those days the word of your pastor was the word of the law and they could do that. They could do it. So that's what we did, because that's back when revivals would start Sunday morning, go through Friday night. You're going to be there a while About Wednesday night. You're going to be there a while, yeah, about Wednesday night, dad said to me. He said I think these people like you. I said I like them too. You ever been to Warren. Okay, there you go. So I said I like them too and I'm ready to go home to my new wife, right? So he said, okay. He said, but I think they like you. We went home I laugh about it now and about a month or so later he said they want you, I want you to go to Warren.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 25:17

Jesse, new York dumb me left New York, went to Warren, ohio, with a brand new wife Because dad said so. Yeah, and God blessed that church. It grew, we paid the mortgage, we bought a parsonage, we did a bunch of things. They did ministry in four years. God blessed it, but I don't believe it was God's perfect will. For my life God honored my obedience to my spiritual father. This generation doesn't know that. They don't know what that's like. I didn't want to go. I didn't ask to go. He told me to go. Here's what was funny. It hit me. About 20 years later he got in his Cadillac and went back to New York and left my hips in Warren. But he told me to go and I spent four years there and that's when the Lord sent me to Columbus, ohio, and I believe in all my heart that is the only church that was for me to pastor, but God honored my obedience.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 26:31

Listen. I tease people and say I got my education and training in the real world in Warren.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 26:42

Ohio, yeah, and it prepared me for Columbus, yeah, and a lot of the growth and what have you that people see is foundational and was formed and forged both in Rockaway and in Warwick, and you can't appreciate Columbus without knowing those two.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 27:15

Yeah, you can't, you've got to get there. Yes, taking steps.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 27:19

Yes, sir, yeah, yes sir, there's no quantum leap and I think and this is not to disparage, because I think sometimes those of us who are not getting up there at age, we've got to be very, very careful we don't disparage those coming behind us Absolutely and in some ways become caustic and critical because they're ambitious or desirous of things. But I think one thing that they're mistaken about is that there are quantum leaps in ministry and it's what you just said. It's step by step, yeah, it's step by step, and there are mentors that teach and pour into down and really began to be reflective about it. I picked up something from all of them. From dad, I picked up pastoring and to this day I often think of this as large as First Church is, I can't get away from pastoring. I can't it from pastoring, I can't, it's just in me.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 28:31

From Pop Kelly, I picked up the life of prayer and consecration. He would do shut-ins at H Kelly Temple Church, garden Christ. His son, joshua, and I Joshua Paskelly, just retired as my executive pastor. We actually grew up together, talking about working in, pastoring together and for 21 years he served as my executive pastor. We would take pot, hot tea, change of clothes, because he would shut in at the church for a week in prayer. So I learned prayer from Pop Scott at First Baptist. I learned preaching. Each of those men poured something into my life that impacted my ministry even to this day Pastoring, praying preaching, because you may not get them all from the same person.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 29:28

Very seldom, very seldom, jesse, you know this. Very seldom are all those things in one person, right yeah?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 29:37

Yeah, let's talk about personal loss, if you can, to help us, because we're always helping others and ministering to others. You know, when there was no rain, there was no rain for the prophet either, until the Lord provided. There you go Right, you go there you go.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 30:19

Yeah, we preach within the context of our reality and I think sometimes we forget that we preach through the pandemic, and the pandemic was as real for us as it was for those of you who were preaching. It's what Henry Nowen calls being wounded healers. Another I forget one of the fathers, not one of the fathers we know, but the desert fathers, monastic fathers. One of them said that, and it might even have been Spurgeon, more current, who said before God uses a person greatly, he first hurts them deeply, them deeply. You've heard Dr Taylor tell that story about the time when a friend of his asked him to go hear a singer at the Metropolitan Opera. He said they got on the subway, went downtown, heard this young lady sing and on the way back, dr Taylor's friend said wasn't she great? Dr Taylor said oh, she was very good. And Dr Taylor, the man turned and said what't she great? Dottela said oh, she was very good. And Dottela, the man turned and said what did you say? Dottela said she was very good. He said did you hear her range, her vocality? Did you hear how she could throw her voice? Did you hear her? Dottela said yes, I heard her, she was very good. The man said, gardner, she's not good, she's great. And Dr Taylor said he said, no, she's very good. She'll be great when life hurts her. You can't be great until life hurts you, and I think the same is true of preaching Absolutely. I don't think, jesse, we can preach without a tear, without some pain in our hearts.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 32:20

For me it started August 1962 when my grandfather died. He was a patriarch of our family. He was the father figure for me. He was the father figure for me. Later it was my aunt, who was the organist of our church, who would walk from her house 1505 Beach, 11th Street, come to 2109 Namiok, pick me up, take me to church, and she died of cancer. She never got to hear me preach, but I stayed in the church because of her. Then, later, my grandmother, who was not just our matriarch but her house, was where all of the children of her three daughters were reared. We all lived in grandma's house.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 33:04

She passed and never heard me preach, and that began a succession of losses in my life. Our mother passed away from cancer in 1988. That was in February. Mom Cray, dad Cray's wife died August of 1988. And then that was followed by the death of our youngest sister Josephine, and then dad Cray passed, and then dad Cray Pop, scott, pop Kelly. I lost all of my mentors, all of my spiritual fathers in that season. The worst one, though, jess, you already know this was January 2nd 2019, when our firstborn Dee Dee, passed away at the age of 40, unexpected, jess got sick on Saturday and on Tuesday she was gone. And and on Tuesday she was gone.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 34:15

And there is nothing that prepares you for the death of a child, absolutely. I woke up Wednesday morning at about five o'clock in the morning and I laid in the dark not wanting to wake Claya, and it hit me that if I lived to be a hundred, it would hurt me as much at a hundred as it did that morning. It is the pain that never goes away. Yeah, it's always right beneath the surface. I can hear a song, I can see her picture or look at her daughter. Yeah, and all of that will start coming back to me, because it's not normal. Right, your children bury you. Right, you don't bury your children. Right, you don't bury your children. Right, you don't. Yeah, so I have lived with loss, but Dee Dee's death gave me a limp and I've been limping ever since. Yeah, it's hard to explain. Sure, yeah, yeah, it's hard to explain. Sure, yeah, it is a grief that is revisited over and over again.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 35:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then how did that translate that pain in her? Translate into a new season of preaching? And then the writings yeah, Because it seemed that you, you use that to continue to, to heal by ministering and helping us through that.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 36:13

I remember years ago did you ever hear of a man named Mal Good who worked for ABC? One of the first black newscasters worked for ABC and his wife, sister Mary Good, was a member of the church that my wife, clyde, grew up in. And I remember one year I had taken ill and she wrote me a letter and in it she put a little pamphlet entitled don't waste your suffering, and in that pamphlet it talked about how, when God sins or allows suffering in our lives, there was always something we learn or gain from it that, if properly received, we can then use it if we don't waste it. And so, even with Dee's death, I wanted to find that kernel of something that I could use, not just for me but through my preaching and pastoring, to help others.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 37:24

You know, John Maxwell says if you drop something, uh, while you're down there, pick up something else Don't. Don't just pick up what you dropped. There's probably something else down there too. So when you get back up, you get up with more than what you dropped down there. I wanted to. I wanted to pick up something while I was down and I wanted to use it. And so my preaching has become much more, and you'll understand this with your mom and your dad and the various losses you've had. It is not just more pastoral, it has more pathos in it, absolutely.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 38:05

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Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 39:09

And thank you, it really does. 2019 was a heck of a year for me. We lost Didi in January. Right after that I went to the doctor for my checkup. She sent me to my cardiologist and said you, you need a pacemaker. So I had a pacemaker put in. That was February. Our brother died. Yeah, yeah, doc, I don't know how I make it through. Yes, it was a year like no other. The grief that I felt it came like wave upon wave upon wave for me. And then I got out of 2019 and I thought, okay, new Year's Eve night, I'm thinking, okay, god got me through it. And then what happens? The pandemic, the pandemic. And I've got to pivot all over it. Joe's kind of like listen, I wanted to change my name. It already was Jay. I wanted to change it from Joseph to Joseph. But through it all, I learned things about God. My devotional life deepened. More, became real than theoretical. It was experiential and that makes all the difference in the world?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 40:40

Absolutely, but thanks for sharing that. Like you said, the pain is always there, sure, always there. Three F's of ministry frustration, fatigue, fear. You know, in going to Columbus, and what you've been able to build with the help of God, how probably unimaginable in the beginning. I mean, and God is Donald, what do you think about how that happened and how God used you to preside over, not only in your denomination, but a church that has been made what it is? And I think we should give ourselves credit in terms of leadership, even though we know God is working through us. But it might not have happened if you weren't there. Yes, sir, if we're not in the places where we are, would it?

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 41:53

have happened. I was teaching at Lot Carey yesterday to the pastor's division and I quoted something by EM Bounds. That is often misunderstood so I'm very careful where I quote it. That is often misunderstood, so I'm very careful where I quote it. But in one of his books on prayer, dr Bounds makes this statement God does not anoint machines, he anoints men. We would not add women. This was written back in the 20s so it was a very patriarchal culture. God doesn't anoint machines, he anoints men, he anoints women, he anoints people. That statement was fine.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 42:36

The next statement was one I had to wrestle with. He said and God doesn't bless churches, he blesses a pastor and through the pastor the church is blessed. And at first, everything in me, out of humility, I tell my church every Wednesday pray, god bless First Church. He said God doesn't bless churches, he blesses a pastor and through that pastor the church is blessed. The more I thought about it and looked at life, it's true. It is true. It's why one pastor can be at a church 15, 20 years, minimal nominal growth. Another pastor can come and the church explodes.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 43:25

Same church same address same people, but the right person comes and God blesses that church through that pastor. So you're absolutely right. It is that tension between humility but also recognizing the hand of God on a person's life, on the pastor's life, that makes a difference. When I went to First Church 43 years ago, there were less than 100 members and yet over time God honored not only the prayers of the saints who were there before I came, but the efforts that I made and as I sought to follow the vision he had given me, I watched God take that and bless it and multiply it, and so I attribute what God has done at First Church in the 43 years to three things the prayers of the saints they would pray God, send us the right man.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 44:33

Second thing I attributed to is pastoral presence. In fact, I did my we used to call it dissertation thesis, now it's called final paper my D-min on the two churches I pastored and it was the presence of the pastor in the healing of a church and I talked about how both of the churches I pastored were churches in need of healing and God used pastoral presence to do that. The third thing is preaching, because you're not going to do much in the African-American church without some preaching. There's got to be some preaching going on. So prayer of the saints in the pew, pastoral presence and preaching. I believe, though, and to take your, my three Ps juxtaposed to your three Fs, that will get you through the fatigue and the fear and all the other issues that come into our lives the frustration, absolutely.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 45:43

And I think that's why, also, when a pastor is no longer at a church, sometimes you never hear about their church anymore, and I'm not disparaging the successor by any means, but that it is the pastor who's the blessing for the congregation. And once that pastor is gone, if the replacement isn't right, then you say like, oh, you never hear some of these great churches. But the greatness of the church was also the pastor being used in God's hands to be a blessing to the people. Where a shepherd is a blessing to sheep, to sheep.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 46:33

And again, I think we have to be willing to say that in a way that it does not sound as if we're taking glory to ourselves yeah, not self-serving, but but it's helping our people understand the role, the unique role of the pastor and why that office must be honored and appreciated and valued, because it is not just the catalyst, it's the hinge on which the door of ministry swings open and close.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 47:07

Yeah, yeah, take Paul out of the churches of the New Testament. What you got? And even though he's humble enough to say it's not I, it is, but Christ. But at the same time, paul is the one that's driving the growth into the Gentile world.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 47:28

When Paul was converted, was it that God spoke to and said I want you to go down to a street called Stray. There's a man there by the name of Saul and he said was it Ananias? Ananias, yeah. He said I've heard a lot about this dude. He's a bad dude, I'm not going. He said no, you go. Yeah, he's a chosen vessel. Chosen vessel and I have already shown him the great things. He must suffer for my sake. But coupled with that is the chosen vessel to do the great work that Paul did. Yeah, he was a chosen vessel to do the great work that Paul did. He was a chosen vessel.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 48:12

Yeah, yeah. And when we talk about preaching, of course we got to go back to one of the masters, our friend, and we heard him over the years and I think I've said on the podcast he did my revival in Elizabeth for about 12 or 15, maybe about 15 years, about 18 years.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 48:35

There it was uh, I tell you what I think about him. Um so often, there's so much I grieve about his leaving us, and, and one of them is I can only imagine what his preaching would be like now, the power of it In this particular moment. With all this going on within the context of our current contemporary condition, I would love to hear him addressing yeah, always addressed issues and was always prophetic.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 49:15

Yes, sir, Sermons were also full of grace, but that prophetic. You know what's on people's minds, except what's going on in their lives and in the life of the nation. And if we as black preachers.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 49:40

don't speak to that, then I don't think we have any business in the world. And our counterparts in the predominantly white culture can't do it, primarily because they've never had to do it, never had to. The preaching of the African-American preacher, from the moment we hit this soil of this continent, has had to, of necessity, be both biblene and prophetic, pastoral as well as contemporary. We've had to do it. We've had to help make sense out of what didn't make sense. That didn't make sense, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 50:27

And who can do that but the preacher?

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 50:47

no-transcript most times when they don't realize, most time when they don't realize, they realize. Yeah, I would say that, yes, say that our catholic brothers understand it in a in a way. We don't often. Catholic priests never talk about the membership of their churches. They talk about their parish, and the parish is the whole community. Yeah, you ask a Catholic priest, how many members do you have? He would probably be hard-pressed to tell you because they see the parish, which is what John Wesley, what did John Wesley say? The world is my parish, it's my parish. Yes, yes, sir, yes, sir, that's a different spirit.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:29

Let's talk about enlarging your yes, sir, talk about the Berean Fellowship and what you're doing All of this. I think the way you were mentored, you are also mentoring, yes, sir. And what is that like? What are some of the challenges? And again, you're right. What is what are some of the challenges? Um, and and again you're right, I think sometimes we, we can be.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 51:56

I think generation before us probably was critical of of our generations, but, but this generation, um, I always believe that god raises our preachers to address their generation. Yes, sir, and I just you know, there's some great young voices that I hear. I think the culture gets in the way so much because you can't always separate the culture from the church and who we are as God's people. We are God's people, oh, sir, we are God's people, we are a church, we are a worshiping congregation. We're not a theater, you know, we're not a pulpit, not a stage. Yes, sir, yes sir. The temptation, then, to go after the culture, thinking that they can become more popular and also draw more people to the kingdom. It doesn't work that way all the time. So, so, voices like ours, in terms of the Berean fellowship, in terms of mentoring younger preachers, what are some of those challenges and and enjoys that you are experiencing, as you do for them, what was done for you and what was done for me as well.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 53:28

Things I've always wanted to do was to be a father to others, because I know the blessing and the benefit of having a spiritual father who fathered me well, and part of that was yanking me in the nap of my neck when I would mess up and even embarrassing me in public when I needed it, because those old men didn't take no tea for fever Right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 53:57

And you listened to them, oh you listened and you suck it Right and you sat and listened. You didn't join the conversation unless you asked something, but you're soaking it in. You don't need to talk, you need to soak it in.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 54:11

Yes, sir, and you imbibe that and you soaking it in. You don't need to talk, you need to soak it in, yes, sir, and you imbibe that and you take it in and it becomes a part of you. So one of the things I always wanted to do God has blessed me with sons and daughters pastoring all over but I always wanted and you will understand this, because you pastored in Elizabeth, now in Philly. I pastored in Warren, now in Philly. I pastored in Warren, now in Columbus Booth, pastored St Paul and then West Jersey. Both have pastored two churches and all of us have pastored two churches in our ministries. In both of those churches I was blessed to be full-time. I've never had to be by vocation, I've never had to be bivocational and I know how. Almost every night of my pastoral life, I have gone to bed saying I didn't do this, I didn't call that person, I didn't get by that hospital and I'm full time, which is why my heroes are bivocational pastors, because I don't know how they do it, don't know.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 55:17

And prepare for sermons Spouses, spouses.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 55:22

Family Pastors, sales Careers I don't know how they do it. So I've always had this burden to come alongside them and help them, mentor them, encourage them, resource them, do whatever I could, because I know as a full-time pastor how I've often felt like I'm barely keeping up. So I tell people my heroes are not mega church superstar preachers, my heroes are bended women who are pulling it 40 hours a week somewhere. Yeah, and what I tell when I go do their anniversaries? I tell their churches stop saying your pastor is part-time, right, your pastor has two full-time jobs, right, because if you're called a pastor, you can't be a part-time. He may be getting part-time pay, now you'd be showing him he ain't getting part-time, that's the same, but they're full-time. They're full-time bro, they're full-time. And so Berean exists.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 56:34

Now what has happened? You know what's happened? Right, we started out small church pastors, midsize. But as we've grown we've been in existence about 23 years we get large church pastors. Now that's fine, but I always remind our board of presbyters let's never forget the original intent, right? Let's never lose sight of what we believe was our true, genuine calling and purpose. So it's my joy to do that and I've seen God bless and again. And here's the thing and I'm very careful in saying this, and I think you and I have to help them celebrate that some of them will never pass the large churches.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 57:13

Yeah, but it's all right, it's all right, it's all right. Decline. It just may be that there are going to be more and more pastors who cannot be sustained by church full-time sir, with benefits and everything that they need, sir, and other people have, sir, and not to feel guilty about having to divide, sir, that time that you're you're, you're sir, that is, but, but they need to be empowered to, to understand that. You know God has still called you.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 58:00

Yes, sir, to to this work and God is still using you. I remind young preachers, or preach, you know a lot of these are middle age, older men and women who are looking back saying, man, did I waste my time? Did I have my ladder up against the wrong building all these years? Was I painting the wrong side of the barn? And I just remind them Paul was a tent maker. Yeah, he was by vocation.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 58:29

Bill Jones called the tent maker from the Arsene's maker from Tarsus. I say Bill, I say William Dr Whit H Beecher, Right Tent maker from Tarsus.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 58:40

And we have to embrace that. Here's the other thing, and you and I could do a whole other podcast on this. The other part of that is what you just said the day and times in which we live, the economy in which we live, but even beyond that, the opportunity, what I call the opportunity zone in which we live, that our sons and daughters in ministry now, many of them not only coming out with MDivs and MATS degrees, many of them with MSWs or Masters of Education or Masters in Psychology or whatever, in government, in the academy, and pastor there Monday through Friday, like they pastor on Sunday in their local congregation.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 59:42

So they have to see it as an extension of their ministry, yeah, and using the skills in the marketplace to make the church better.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 59:52

Come on, you know, come on. No, come on. It's a two-way street, absolutely, and it's almost an interchange. Yeah, it's almost as if one feeds the other. Yeah, so I take what I learned in the marketplace and bring what is often called best business practices, bbp I bring that to the church. How to read a ledger, your P&L, your account payables, how to create a business plan for the church I bring that to the church. But then I take back to the marketplace. Integrity, accountability, vision, spirituality. That talks about a relationship with God that impacts my life in real and visceral ways. Both benefit because I live in both of those worlds. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:00:53

Compat, yeah, yeah, compatible. I guess they're compatible and can feed off of each other. Your books, talk about your books, and you know books will live on. Yes, yes, sermons live on, but not the preaching moment. For us, they go when we go, but what you're leaving in terms of written? And I think in the black community, black church, black pastors, preachers, we don't write enough because we think we don't have much to offer. Yes, sir, yes. But you've given the black church and others something with the books.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:01:42

Yes, sir, you know, Dr HB Charles in Jacksonville says that every sermon ought to have a purpose and that when we're in our study we ought to ask what is the purpose of this sermon? Yeah, I think books ought to have a purpose. I, you know academicians, you know. This is why I admire them. I admire men and women in the academy because they give their life to that. Many of them underpaid you don't make a lot of money in the academy and many of them write books. And here's what we know. Here's what we know. Well, not here's what we know. Here's what they know. They write those books and they know their reading audience is going to be about 150 people. Yeah, they know that, right, they're never going to be on a New York Times bestseller list, right, but they write it for the academy. They write it for students who may be doing research. They write it for other academicians who may use it as part of a syllabus. They write it for other academicians who may use it as part of a syllabus. They pour out their life to a limited audience. So those books serve a purpose.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:03:00

My books are written. Here's my purpose. First of all, I want to write to people in clear, practical ways. I want to address issues what you talked about, yeah, questions people are asking and areas where they're hurting. I want to take biblical principles and apply them to the everyday issues of life. And here's my fourth, and probably the most important, and I want it to be easy to read. Yeah, because I want them to be able to read it in a couple of days. I don't want them to pick it up and say, my God, it'd be the rest of my life. I want them to be able to read it in a couple of days and remember points from it. So you're not going to get a lot of academic stuff in my books. You're going to get real life, practical, pound for pound, on the ground. You can use it right now.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:03:54

Which the academics can give us, that, they can give us that, but the needs of the people.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:03:59

Pastorial yeah, that's what I write for. Yeah, yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:04:02

Yeah, yeah, meeting people's needs. I always say you even have to prepare a sermon from the pulpit, I mean from the pew, as if you're sitting in that pew. What questions is the pew asking? Yes, sir, what are the concerns? Because sometimes we think that people are on the same level of spirituality that we are, and obviously they're not. But what does it mean to preach to the needs of people? Yes, sir, we address, and you've done that for 40-some years and again, the challenge is not that. You know, I always say that anybody can come in our churches for revival and just kill the house, you know, and that's what we want them to do, and they're good at doing that yes, sir, but when they go home, we're there Sunday after Sunday, decade after in your case 42, my case 38, with the challenge of a fresh word every week that my transition has been not just preaching to impress, but to help, to help people grow in Christ.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:05:30

Yes, sir, yes sir, yes sir. I tell people all the time I bring preachers in and I want them to out-preach me. Yeah, I want listen, I am the greatest cheerleader of a preacher on. You are Hershey Church, I'm going to be helping you because I want you to preach. And I've had guys say to me man, you bring so-and-so in there, why you do that? Hey, they're going. I said listen to me. 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. I said if four sermons, if four sermons can take my church to, let them have it. Well, they need to help Mary and Barry and Gizit and Council preach to these people week after week. When the smoke clears and the dust settles from the fallout of the theophany, I put that joke on their plane on Saturday and Sunday morning. My folk are glad to hear their pastor, glad to hear the pastor Because we walk with them, bro.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:06:37

Yeah, I heard Dr William J Shaw say because he brings to his church in revivals you know what we call hoopers and he'll tell anybody he's not, he doesn't try to do what he's, the gift is not his. And I said well, he said he does that because his people deserve to hear other voices and other styles of preaching, other than his own.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:07:04

Yes sir, yes sir, I agree with him wholeheartedly.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:07:09

Because all of us have different gifts in terms of the, and it's all a part of the black preaching, yes sir. Tradition, yes sir. And to bring in you know again, I had Charles Booth. Now, you know, by Friday night he'd pack out Union, we had chairs down the aisle. He'd pack out Union, we had chairs down the aisle. And when he'd get through, throwing his Bible and taking off his ties and then his jacket, when God said, glad, he doesn't have any more points. So do we do a trip to New York? Right? So I put this dude on the plane and I go back Sunday morning steal my pulpit.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:08:00

People still want to hear the pastor because of all the things that he or she does other than preaching, other than preaching that. And I say even in terms of younger pastors you can't go into church and just think you're going to be the king overnight or queen. You got to build relationships. You got to introduce yourself to people through your preachings and build those relationships Bury the dead, love the people, dedicate to infants, baptize, and they will always remember that, even when you're gone, they will remember that you were. They may have a new pastor and they will love that new pastor, but they will also remember you. There are people to this day who remember Dr Peace, who preceded me was there 44 years affectionately so, which I embrace. Yes, sir, I embrace because I'm a recipient of his legacy and the love people had for him.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:09:17

Yes, sir, Moses Marquette preached. I remember the eulogy you preached for him about living and dying. Yeah, living, yes, yes, sir, yes, sir, yep, you're right, yes, sir, wow, yeah, I remember that. You're so right. I think it's unrealistic to expect that a man or woman can serve a people 44 years and you can just, like an eraser on a board, erase them. Those men and women are in the hearts of those people and they will never, ever forget their sojourn with them. And so when you go back to I know you were back there to do Pastor Buffalo's service of triumph you were their pastor, you were there. You were their pastor. You were there, and so much of what that church is became that under you.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:10:19

Yeah, yeah, I sat in that pulpit to eulogize him and my mind went back to when we built the church and I remember we had to leave the old site while they were building the new site and we rented a school two blocks away. Yes, sir, and I can remember that first Sunday in that school and I'm looking there's a stage and no pulpit, there are theater seats and no pews. Yes, sir, and I said to myself what did you do to these people? You know you have brought them away from the building they had worshipped in for like 75 years to this school. And I started, like, will you keep raising money? Will you ever get them back? They're here in this school because of youth. And I'm sitting there in the pulpit and the words come, do not be afraid.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:11:33

Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:11:37

That's the fear, but also the promise and the faith that you're not out here by yourself, when we know that people are following us, because we said follow, yes, as we follow Christ, but follow us to these unknown places. Unknown places, unknown places unknown cities.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:12:02

Yes, sir, I have often said, and I think you will agree, that there are certain relationships in life that are God-ordained and given Parent-child, especially mother-child. There is no relationship like that. Spouse-to-spouse there is no relationship. There is no relationship If a man will leave his mother and father cleave to his wife, they shall no longer be two, they become one.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:12:46

That is a mystical.

Bishop Timothy J. Clarke: 1:12:46

God moment. And then I believe, the third is pastor and people. Yes, yes, doc, I don't believe and I may be the only person in the world who believes this that there is something divinely orchestrated and ordained that unites a pastor and a people together. Yeah, it's why they'll follow you. Yeah, yeah, it's why they'll love you. Yeah, because it's the same way a parent with a child or spouse with a spouse. You can't explain it, yeah, any other way other than that's God's doing. That's God's doing, and I don't think we always appreciate that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:13:32

I don't think we do. I don't think we do. I don't think we do. I don't think we do. Well, my friend, this has been a blessing, blessing to me, blessing to our audience. Good to see you again.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 1:13:50

Yes, sir, we're going to do what we said we were. You know, we're at an age now and it's a whole network of us. We may not always be as close to each other, but we know each other through our friend, yes, sir, and we become friends. We need to find a way to fellowship. I think that's missing with other younger generations is the fellowship of preachers. We talked about that relationship. We know each other, we know what we're going through and we're going to have to make that happen. I certainly want to thank our good friend and my brother, bishop Timothy Clark. Thanks for telling us how you were named too, that's, for being with us on our podcast, and blessings to you and your ministry and family. If today's conversation has added value to your ministry, be sure to subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss any of these episodes, and please stay connected to us on social media at Ministry Forward for more insight and more conversation. Thank you so much and may the Lord bless you.