Ep 12 - Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. Explains the Power of Preaching in the Black Church

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. explores Pulpit & Pew: The Sacred Exchange That Gives Life, a teaching on the living covenant between preacher and people that remains central to the Black Church.

With wisdom forged through decades of preaching, Dr. Mapson examines what truly happens in the “preaching moment,” where the Word meets the listener and transformation begins. Drawing on Augustine’s charge to teach, delight, and move, he unpacks how instruction, clarity, and compassion keep preaching alive and effective in every generation.

This conversation explores:

• How instruction anchors preaching amid growing biblical illiteracy
• Why delight and rhetoric matter for attention, clarity, and joy in God
• How movement turns Sunday proclamation into Monday obedience
• The covenant between pulpit and pew and the “rights” both share
• Preaching across generations without losing anyone in the room
• Addressing crisis moments without losing the gospel’s center

For preachers, teachers, and all who love the Church, this episode offers a masterclass in faithful communication where the gospel gives life and both pulpit and pew breathe together.

Chapters

• 0:00 Framing Pulpit–Pew Covenant
• 2:00 Purpose of Preaching: Augustine’s Threefold Aim
• 6:10 Delight and Rhetoric: Making People Want to Listen
• 9:40 From Presentation to Persuasion: Calling to Action
• 12:20 Hearing Completes the Sermon
• 16:45 Who Sits in the Pew? Generations and Stories
• 23:20 Sponsor Message: Terry Funeral Home
• 24:20 Called From the Pew to the Pulpit
• 27:00 Pew Rights: The Text Belongs to the People
• 32:10 Preaching Scripture in a Biblically Illiterate Age
• 37:30 Addressing the Week Without Losing the Text
• 41:20 “Who Am I in the Text?” John 9

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this episode of the Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson. If you can see, uh, it's only one share today, uh, meaning that I'm going I'm going solo this time, uh, but I want to spend this time with you talking about what we do in the black church in this preaching moment, the interaction between pulpit and pew, with an emphasis today on the pew and uh how central uh preaching remains in the life of the African American church and and the African-American community. I had a funeral earlier today, and I would dare say a vast majority of the people who were in the sanctuary do not frequent it often and maybe only come to the sanctuary for funerals and and and weddings, but people God has given us at that moment to preach the good news of the kingdom because they need to hear it as well. What happens at this intersection between pew and pulpit? And the the the contract, the covenant that Pew and Pulpit engage in uh that takes place during this preaching moment that um gives life to us all. And uh Pew needs what the pulpit has to say, but also the pulpit needs to be sure that uh it understands what the pew needs. And so I want to I want to read a quote that I came across which I think set the stage for our conversation or or uh my presentation to you today. It is from uh Ryan Tanetti, who is a professor of practical theology. This is what he says he says, neither attentive note-taking nor appreciative head nods nor even sympathetic tears satisfy the purpose of preaching. And of course, he's speaking from another context. If we are preaching from the context of the black church, this is what I would add: neither hand clapping, nor shouting, nor standing, nor speaking in tongues, nor prophesying, nor dancing, nor hoping satisfy the purpose of preaching. Only lives that are changed by the word working in the hearts of God's people can do that. I want to mention a book that was that was written many centuries ago by uh Saint Augustine about uh teaching. It's called Christian teaching, and he talks about the three purposes of preaching. And in a commentary concerning that, uh by an Anglican minister by the name of Christopher Bealey, he says, after all, people cannot believe in, hope for, or love what they do not know. Which leads us to the first purpose of preaching, according to Augustine, which is instruction. He says that the first purpose of preaching is instruction. A preacher is also teacher, and one can teach without preaching, but one cannot preach without teaching. All through the scriptures, great commission, go and teach all nations, right? In the book of Acts, uh, eighth chapter, an Ethiopian official is in his chariot, and uh he's joined by Philip, and Philip asks him the question, Do you understand what you're reading? And his response is, How can I accept someone explain it to me? Uh Jesus taught with authority and and taught his disciples. And so Augustine would say that preaching is instruction, that when when we preach, we are instructing uh believers in terms of the way of salvation, in terms of doctrine, in terms of what we should believe and embrace as people of God. What now does it mean to be in Christ? Is is what instruction does for us. What does it mean to know Christ? What does it mean in terms of our relationship to God, but also what does it mean in terms of our relationship to each other? How do we relate to God? How do we relate to each other in terms of understanding the nature of the Christian life? Second purpose, he says, is delight to delight. So first purpose is to teach or to instruct, and the second is to delight. And that's a word that we want to unpack because it may be a word that uh is not, doesn't make sense in terms of the purpose of preaching being to delight. And it simply means how is the sermon made pleasurable? How is the sermon made pleasurable? How how is it made enjoyable? I've heard people say that a sermon is not to be enjoyed, and I I beg to differ. I think along with a sermon challenging and correcting and encouraging and all of those things, I think it is to be enjoyed. In fact, we are to enjoy being in the presence of God and worship, to enjoy worship, to enjoy the singing and to enjoy the message as well. The question then is how do the hearers hear? And so, in terms of delight, we're talking about the use of rhetoric. Another quote that Augustine uses, and he says, Why should the devil have all the good rhetoric? You know, so what is it about language and word choice, which is rhetoric, the art of uh using language effectively and persuasively, uh, gestures, uh uh wordplay, stories, uh, illustrations, in other words, to delight the congregation, uh, to make the congregation want to listen. What is it that we need to do in order to make the congregation want to listen to us? The third purpose, says Augustine, in terms of uh purpose of preaching is to move, uh to instruct, to delight, and to move. Meaning, the sermon ought to be acted upon. When the preacher is finished, the congregation ought to ask the question of itself, what must I do? It's a call to do something. Peter's uh sermon in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, he he he goes through the history of uh God's activity with God's people in the Old Testament, and he he brings it all all the way to Christ and offers Christ for the salvation of sin and as God's the new thing that God is doing in the life of his people. And what is the people's response? The people's response is uh, what shall we do? Right? And of course, Peter responds, well, you need to be you need to repent and you need to be baptized, and of course, then and then to follow Christ and to be a disciple of Christ. And so even when we uh preachers finish preaching on Sundays, one of the highlight moments in the worship is the invitation to discipleship. Uh, it is an invitation first to persons who who uh who need repentance and who need to accept Christ as Savior, but it is also in terms of what shall we do. It's a it's also a question that the believer has to ask, people who've already accepted Christ, uh, in terms of what is what is the greater service that I'm called to do as a result of this sermon. In ancient Greece, there were two very famous orators. Uh one was named Cicero and the other Demosthenes. And uh Cicero said, when I speak, people say, What a great speech. He says, but when Demosthenes speaks, people say, Let us march. What is what is the call upon our lives for us to do in terms of acting upon what we have heard? The difference between uh preaching as presentation and preaching as persuasion. This is the pulpit side, and and I think it it is uh uh uh certainly important for those of us who who preach, and I always uh have some hesitancy about talking about preaching to other preachers because uh we all do it, and I'm sure very well. But just sharing some some insights that I have picked up along the way. There's a book uh that really helped me to see the pew side of this intersection. Uh and it it the book is called Pew Rights. Pew Rights, R-I-G-H-T-S, uh, subtitle for people who listen to sermons. You know, I think one of the things we need to do is to to uh help our people know what to listen for, uh, because they they very well may be listening for the wrong things, things and to the wrong voices. Pew rights for people who listen to sermons. It's a book by Roger Van Horn, H-A-R-N. And the forward, uh, the forward of that book is by one of the one of the great uh preachers uh of our time. His name is Thomas Long. Thomas Long uh was a professor of preaching, uh has written many books. One of the books is used in uh Homiletics classes and in mine as well, which is called The Witness of Preaching. He looks at different images of preaching. He calls preaching a witness. We have witnessed something, and and we're speaking to the people about what we have witnessed. And so uh Thomas Long wrote the foreword to this book along with a mortician, the book that is called The Good Funeral. And in that book, he talks about death and grief and uh examines funeral practices as well as some of the tension that often exists between uh preachers and and funeral directors, and this whole matter of the commercialization of funerals today. I think we can all agree that uh uh you know there was a time when funeral, funerals and death was in in the hands of the of the family. Uh uh the deceased were laid out in the home, and then uh funeral directors uh came into being more prominently, and now uh it is the funeral director who's who's in charge of that. What does what does that look like in terms of uh commercialization? And also uh in terms of what does it look like in terms of our funerals today, which uh sometimes can can become spectacles and um testimonies to someone who is who is dead and and not about Christ and about resurrection and about uh the purpose of a funeral being to primarily being to glorify God. Anyway, uh this book which is called Pew Rites, and I'm gonna uh the rest of what I say today will be based uh some somewhat on uh what he says in terms of of the pew. What is the role of hearing? So we have the pulpit where speaking is taking place, uh a preacher is addressing the pew, but then on the other side of that we have uh we have the pew, and we have the hero. And uh the the goal of his book, as he states, is to encourage preachers to listen to the hearers who have heard the word before. And so every time we preach, we're preaching to people who have already heard the word. They may not have heard the particular text that we're going to use, but they have heard the word. They're part of the community of faith already, uh, and a part of what we would call the congregation's memory. So that when we come to worship on Sunday mornings, uh one of the purposes of worship is remembering. We're remembering what God, Israel was called upon always to remember. And so their feasts, which were times of worship, what were times when they were called upon to remember what God had already done for them. It is the it is the memory of the congregation that come to celebrate and to enjoy, knowing that God, who has already done this, will continue to do for us and to keep us. Uh and so, in a real sense, uh I could put it this way: the pulpit was made for the pew, not the pew made for the pulpit. Pulpit was made for the pew uh in terms of of understanding what's heard. You know, the Bible is about hearing. Um, Romans 10, 13 to 17. Uh, how shall they hear without a preacher? Hearing is more than just uh uh physical activity of hearing sound. It is a matter of hearing, understanding that leads to belief and and the heart being open and receptive uh to God. He says a sermon is not finished until it's heard. Uh a sermon is not finished until it's heard. I I remember the story too about two ladies who were sitting in uh church one Sunday, and the preacher was going just on and on and on uh in the words of that song, so on and on and on and on. And one lady said to the other one, he said, she said, I I thought he was finished. And the other lady said, He's finished, he just hadn't quit. But uh the sermon is not finished until it is heard. So the sermon can can be finished in terms of delivery, but is the sermon heard? Because the work of the sermon uh is in the hearing of the congregation, the pew, and then what the the act the the action of then doing something about what is heard. And and often uh as as preachers, we don't always know the effect of that sermon in that moment. And I think we've we've all um, you know, after the sermon, people greeting us and telling us what a fine sermon it was. Um and sometimes we may wonder, you know, how good was it and how effective it was, and and uh we we may not know the effect just by the the congregational response in the moment. It's sometimes years, sometimes we will never know, and sometimes people will come back at at some later date and remind us of uh as as I've had experience of people who come to me and reminded me of a sermon I preached so long ago that I had forgotten it. So the first thing then becomes who are the hearers? Because it is in the hearing, Deuteronomy 6, hear, O Israel. Israel is it is commanded to hear, teach your children, hear, uh, hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is is one Lord. Uh so it's not just a cerebral uh activity, it is an emotive activity. We hear not just with the brain and the mind, but we also uh hear with the heart. Who are the hearers? And um we you know we we have to realize, and I'm sure we do, that um we're we're speaking on any given Sunday to what six or seven generations? Uh silent generation, which uh I I think I'm kind of a part of. Uh I'm on the edge of the silent generation and and the baby boomers. So you have the silent generation up uh until 1945, beginning in 1946. You have baby boomers, then you have Generation X, you have millennials, you have Generation, uh Gen Z, Gen Alpha, right, and Gen Beta now. Uh and and and and and the challenge for us is preaching to uh a multiplicity of generations so that the word goes forth and and and all of them here, all of them here, who are they uh who sit in the pew? Homemakers, professionals, students, persons who are married, persons who are single, males, females, the elderly, persons without formal education, uh skeptics. What about all the religious skeptics that we preach to on Sundays who don't want us to know that they are religious skeptics? And and sometimes uh we as preachers are tempted to preach uh from the lens of our own generation. And of course, our generation is what we know uh and what we have experienced, but in doing so, sometimes we can leave out other generations. Two quick stories uh in my own uh uh preaching experience. I remember some years ago I preached a sermon, and I don't know, don't remember where it was, when it was. I think it was even before I came to Philadelphia. And in the sermon, it might have been a Mother's Day sermon, and I said something to the effect um, you know, how children ought to spend time with their parents and and and tell parents they love them, not wait, you know, not use parents just for babysitters or when they want something, but uh should should uh uh spend time with their parents other than Mother's Day. And I, you know, I felt right in saying that. But then at the end of the sermon, a a a young person, young lady came up to me and she said, Reverend Mapson, I heard what you said about parents, uh children ought to uh you know, tell their parents that they love them, because I I was also saying you you won't have them around always. I think we we've all gone there some at some point. She said to me, she said, but um my mother has never told me she loved me. And I said, you know, I was like, I was shocked. I said, I said, wow, I was I was I was speaking from my generation as as a parent and and not from hers as the child, or even from my own as a as a son. And and uh the the the her words to me convicted me in terms of of speaking to um more than my own generation and and not coming across as chastising uh younger generation for what they were not doing without also uh the so many children who who grow up unloved and they carry that with them for the rest of their lives. The other the other one was was just recently, this past Sunday, I preached a sermon at Monumental, and um I said in the in the uh midst of a sermon, I was talking about uh how important it is to listen to God, are saying that uh even in these very troubled and chaotic times, God is God is saying something, and I added, if we listen, you know, God is saying something if we listen. And so my little illustration was you know, there was a time when children listened to parents, you know, and and and of course the parents and older people saying, Amen, you know, amen. What I did not say and should have said was parents ought to listen to children too. See, and in and doing so would have uh, and we always think about what we should have done after we finish preaching, um, but the the balance of of trying to be inclusive of uh of all the generations that we are that we are preaching to. This episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner, Terry Funeral Home, Incorporated. For over 85 years, they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion, and consistency. Under the leadership of Gregory T. Burrell, Terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name, offering guidance and support when it's needed the most. So whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss, Terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity, clarity, and compassion when families need it the most. To find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence, visit Terry FuneralHome.com and thank you. The other thing is important to remember is the only way we get to the pulpit as preachers is from the pew. I mean, we we didn't start in the pulpit. We started in the pew. I my own childhood, uh sitting in in the pew, uh listening to my father every Sunday. So we're we're called not from the pulpit, we are called from the pew to the pulpit. That's an awesome understanding then of the need to prepare sermons from the pew instead of from the pulpit. And there's a a preacher by the name of Richard Baxter of another generation, and he said a language was not inclusive at the time, but he's he said, I preached as a dying man to dying men. And of course, we could rephrase that, I preach as a dying person to to other dying persons. Um you ever thought about the the dying preaching to the dying about new life? No, the the dying preaching to the dying about new life. So what are the what are the rights of the pew? And I'm just gonna name a few uh of my own that I that have come out of my reading of this uh this uh wonderful book that I think every uh preacher and hearer ought to ought to have. Um the pew has a right to hear biblical text. The pew has a right to hear a biblical text. That may sound very simple. It also may be assumed, but we cannot always assume today that preachers, all preachers preach from a biblical text. And I understand the different types of preach of sermons, but if it is if it is preaching, uh it it should be anchored in a in a biblical text. And I think one of the things that the challenges today is in trying to be culturally relevant um and as non-religious as possible. And we see we see that at work even in the life of the church. We we want churches that don't look like churches, uh sanctuaries that look like auditoriums and and not sanctuaries. And I mean that's that's that's fine, but but what is it about what we do and and who we represent that that ought to be distinguished from the culture? And and if if it then does the sermon does not have a text, I would question whether it's a sermon or just a talk or an essay or a lecture. I think the the pew has the right to hear a biblical text, particularly in an age of biblical illiteracy. Um we cannot even assume that the congregation, people in the congregation know this the stories of the Bible that we take for granted. We can't assume that they know the parable of the prodigal son or the story of the flood, story of the children of Israel coming out of Egypt uh and and uh crossing the Red Sea, woman at the will. I mean, we could go on and on. Uh the the assumptions we make, but but but we're in a time of biblical illiteracy. The pew has a right to hear a text, our text, not my text. And and I say that because the text does not belong to the pulpit or to the preacher. Really, the the text belongs to the congregation. So it's it's our text. We're we're preaching our text. I mean, I may be doing the work, but but but the congregation is also preaching. I think that came very clear to us during COVID, and and many of us um, you know, would go to the sanctuary every Sunday with just a skeletal crew of people, someone to deal with the the media, uh, maybe a uh musician, uh, organist and a choir member, a couple other uh officers or members of the church, and basically stood and preached the empty pews, um, which which was a challenge, particularly in the black church, because of the need for the the interaction uh as the pulpit feeds the congregation, the congregation is also feeding the pulpit. And uh that is why I think black preaching um to to really appreciate it has to be has to be heard in person, not just sermons read from a book. And and I've I've been Blessed over the years to be able to I I have the some volumes of Dr. Gardner Taylor's sermons, but I could also say I was there and I I heard my I was I was at Hampton uh in Ogden Hall when when uh he he electrified the congregation. Um reading reading the sermon is is the next best thing, but even when I read it I can hear his voice, and and that makes that that printed word come alive even more. It's not it's not um it it the Bible belongs to the congregation of of which the preacher is a part, really. Uh just think about how the preacher is called by God and who sat among the people, side by side with the people, is called now to go to a raised platform and turn around and face the people he wants or she wants neck uh wants sat next to. That's a that's an amazing thing to think about. I've also been to a couple of churches recently, and I don't know if they they they've done it for theological reasons or not, but uh they don't they don't sit in the pulpit during the service, they sit with the congregation, talking about the ministers on the front row in the congregation. I think it's a it's uh it can be a powerful symbol. I'm not saying to do that, but it's it's it's a powerful symbol that uh a preacher is part of the congregation, and then when it's time uh for the word, the preacher goes to the pulpit and faces the people. But other than that, he or she is sitting with the congregation, worshiping with the people and being a part of that congregation. The the the book uh where the texts are uh belongs to the to the congregation. And we're preaching the text, not the preacher's opinions, not preaching politics or social issues, even though we know that the gospel is is a part of that. Gospel has to address uh the issues that affect people every day and and has to articulate the the pain of what it what it means to be black in America today. How can one preach the Sunday after the death of George Floyd and say nothing about him? Say say nothing about what happened, which which which did occur in many pulpits across America. Uh, white and black pulpits say nothing about him. One of our colleagues here in Philadelphia, the Reverend Clarence, Reverend Dr. Clarence Wright, um, wrote a book. Um, and the name of the book is The Sunday After Um Preaching Moments and Movements. And he he he talks about uh the need for preaching to address what's happened during the week without becoming a social essay or a political essay. It is still anchored in the text and in the gospel, but it has to speak to the experiences of our people uh in these particular times. I think also the pew has has a right to know what the text has to do with them and and what they have to do with the text. The pew has the right to ask the question, who am I in the text? Right. I I like John chapter 9. I use it a lot for teaching purposes because it's it's packed with so much, such richness, uh, and so much is going on. It's it's you know constant action, and that's why stories resonate so so well with people and why Jesus used stories through parables. Um they they they're they're packed with action. And when we look at John 9 and ask, who am I in the text? It's it's a very serious question because sometimes we want to identify with the the good guy and or good girl, as whatever the case may be, and really not see ourselves in in the characters that Jesus exposes. So in uh John 9 is about the Jesus healing the blind man. Are we the blind man or blind or could be blind woman? Or are we are we the blind man? Or are we the disciples? Because you know, disciples came to him uh and said, you know, why why is he blind? And so they're asking those those who's supposed to who are closest to him and uh should know better are asking a theological question based on their traditional understanding of sin. Who sinned? Somebody had that he wouldn't be blind if somebody didn't sin, right? Um so are we the disciples? Are we are we like the disciples and we we're good at asking questions and kind of like people who are hungry in America, and and the cons the extent of our concerns is to say we'll pray for them, you know, instead of working to change the systems that that keep them hungry and poor. Are we the neighbors? You know, the blind man had some neighbors and they get involved because they're not used to seeing him. They're used to seeing him in his condition of blindness, but they they can't they can't handle that he can now see. Are we the parents? Remember, the parents also involved. They don't want to take a stand, so they they refer the Pharisees, go, you know, he's of age, go go go talk to him about it, because they feared the Pharisees and what would happen if they got involved, uh, and and membership in the synagogue was important to them. Are we the Pharisees, uh religious leaders, and and the fear the people had uh to go against the religious leaders? And then we see toward the end of that uh chapter the consequences of our healing. So uh we have we have to let people know that when God heals us, that's not that's not the end of the journey. That's not uh the blessing is is uh is there in terms of the healing, but there are consequences to the healing. Um people don't want us to be healed and want to keep us trapped in the old life because it makes them feel good. Uh but here's a man who is healed of his blindness, and and the consequence, of course, was that uh that he was uh kicked out of the out of the synagogue. Um, but what does it matter to be kicked out of the synagogue if you're accepted by Jesus? I mean, that's that's a whole um way of of understanding that uh telling the truth has consequences. You know, you can't tell people tell the truth, everything's gonna be all right. We see it uh uh in America if and and sometimes truth comes more readily from persons other than in the pulpit. Sometimes it comes from commentators, sometimes it comes from comedians who you know uh are often less fearful to say something that many preachers are afraid to say. Pew has a right to know that the preacher is a part of the human condition. And I I said earlier, uh Richard Baxter saying, um I'm dying preaching to dying people, right? Pew has a right to know that the preacher is a part of the human condition, and sometimes that's in simply in in our preaching, we tend to say a lot of you um kind of pointing to the congregation as if it's their problem, their sin, something they need to fix instead of we, our in so that the the at that point the pulpit is is involved in the in the pew. And then uh the pew has a right to know that when the preacher says the the Bible says that that the Bible really said it, you know. Uh nobody can say the Bible says, like Reverend Marcus Cosby, I went to hear him last week at uh at Mount Airy, and he has this way of the by the Bible says, and uh, and and and then he he preaches what the Bible says. The pew has a right uh to to know that when when we say the Bible says that it's the Bible saying it and not me saying it. Um and so um uh I'm grateful for this time and uh couple couple of couple of things I I throw out to uh our students sometimes in terms of uh of um of phrases and and things that I say and and one is that the the worst place to be with nothing to say is the pulpit. Another one is a preacher who won't read is worse than a preacher who can't read. And then the third thing is the congregation shouldn't know the sermon is over before the preacher does. Let me close with with a uh a comment about the the two persons that that I call giants in the black church who have gone to be with the Lord in the last few weeks, and then they're not persons that may be well known in terms of of a social media presence, uh, but they're persons that that we need to know, and it's so easy just to Google and and and look them up and uh the impact of their lives. One is a preacher and one is a musician. The preacher is a Reverend Dr. J. Alfred Smith, who was uh for over 50 years pastor of the Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland, California, and one one of the made it as as its leader, one of the prominent church, not not only the prominent church in Oakland, but one of the prominent prominent churches in America. Um he was president at one time of the Progressive National Baptist Convention. Uh he's professor at uh what was then Seminary, American Baptist Seminary Seminary of the West, which I be I think became Berkeley, maybe Berkeley Theological Seminary. Uh just a very prominent uh social justice preacher. Um and and and and pastor of the church that Dr. Marvin McNichol says that we can't just preach social justice. We have to do social justice. And he's he led his church over these decades to to be involved in social justice issues, community uh programs, um, a great, an impactful uh preacher of the gospel who lived to be in his mid-90s and is gone to be with the Lord. The other is a musician, uh Dr. James Abington. And Dr. Abington, a Morehouse graduate, was a uh student and protege of the late great Dr. Wendell Phillips Whalem, who was uh professor at Morehouse and director of the Glee Club for many years. Um and and Jimmy, as he was called, um was a musicologist. He um, great organist, uh could play the hymns of the Chickably gospel as well, played the hymns of the church author. Uh, I think if you if you can should get his book called Let Mount Zion Rejoice. Let Mount Zion Rejoice, a Judson book. And also he edited a book and included me with one of the articles called Readings in the African American Church. Um uh and and I had a chance to, he was, he was uh a member of and an organist at Friendship Baptist Church in Atlanta and was just getting ready to take a position uh at Duke University at the end of the summer. I had an opportunity to sit next to him at the Hampton Conference at the musical, uh at the at the concert on that Thursday evening, and never thought it would be the last time. Uh uh National Baptist Convention came to Philly in 2002 and 2007, and Jimmy was the guest conductor for choir that we formed throughout the city with about six or seven hundred voices. But um he's called the dean of African American Church Music and a great loss uh to us. Um great both of both of these men great gifts to the kingdom of God. God bless you. Thank you for allowing me to go solo this time. Uh, and if you've enjoyed this uh episode of the Ministry Exchange, we ask that you would uh would follow us uh and and please look out for the next episodes. God bless you.