Ep 13 - She Preached Anyway: How Dr. Cynthia L. Hale Changed the Church

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Rev. Dr. Cynthia L. Hale shares the courageous journey of a woman who answered God’s call when the church wasn’t ready to listen. As the founder and Senior Pastor of Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia, Dr. Hale reflects on more than four decades of breaking barriers, building leaders, and preaching with conviction and grace.

With wisdom shaped by experience, she explains what it means to lead without losing yourself, and how empowering others sustains both the pastor and the people. From her musical beginnings that shaped her voice and rhythm, to planting Ray of Hope with only four members in her apartment, Dr. Hale recounts how vision, discipline, and faith turned a small gathering into a movement.

This conversation explores:

• The cost and courage of saying yes to God’s call as a woman in ministry
• How mentoring and team-based leadership create healthy, lasting churches
• The vital connection between worship, justice, and pastoral responsibility
• Why rest, renewal, and boundaries are non-negotiables for effective leadership
• How empowerment and excellence keep ministry fresh across generations

For every pastor, leader, and woman answering a difficult call, Dr. Hale offers both testimony and strategy — a masterclass in leading with integrity, longevity, and hope.

Listen, share with someone who needs encouragement, and subscribe so you never miss an episode of The Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:10 The Sermon Behind Ruthless Trust
• 5:55 Reclaiming Identity And The Black Church’s Call
• 10:45 Ruthless Trust And God’s Sovereignty
• 14:30 Early Faith And Formative Influences
• 18:45 Music Training Shaping Preaching And Worship
• 23:05 Pastors As Lead Worshipers
• 27:30 Founding Ray Of Hope: From Apartment To Thousands
• 33:20 Building Teams And Breaking One-Pastor Models
• 37:45 Women In Ministry: Mentoring And Conference
• 41:35 Sponsorship Message
• 42:15 Male Allies, Theology, And Liberation
• 46:30 Leading Hampton Conference Post-Pandemic
• 51:20 The Black Church: Justice, Voting, And Community Change
• 56:05 Counsel To Women Answering The Call
• 1:00:00 Closing Reflections And Subscribe CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. And welcome to this uh edition of the Ministry Exchange with Pastor Mapson, uh, which is an opportunity for us to have a conversation uh with some of the leading voices in um uh in the body of Christ concerning issues of concern for um our people and for the church and for the world. Uh we're happy today to welcome to the ministry exchange um Reverend Dr. Cynthia Hale, who is the founder and senior pastor of Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia, a thriving congregation that she has led for over four decades, uh known for its excellence, integrity, and community impact. Um, Dr. Hale is the founder of ELA Pastoral Ministries and the Women in Ministry Conference, uh, empowering and mentoring pastors and women in ministry across the country. She was appointed by President Barack Obama to the President's Commission on White House Fellowships, and delivered the invocation at the 2016 Democratic National Convention.

unknown: 1:23

Dr.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23

Hale is an author, a preaching scholar, um she is a national ministry leader and trailblazer. She is the chair of IC3, the IC3 Conference, um, and also a past president of the prestigious Hampton University Ministers Conference, also a recipient of the Duke University Distinguished Alumni Award. Dr. Hale, welcome to uh ministry uh exchange.

SPEAKER_00: 1:58

Thank you so much, Pastor. Yeah, it's a joy to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:02

Thank you. Thanks for thanks for being here. Now I I can't begin what we've come to talk about without mentioning the sermon. Um I've had the privilege of hearing you preach twice in the last month and a half. Um and most recently at um Enon Tabernacle, uh Ruthless Trust. And the way you took a very popular story, biblical story, which I think is always a challenge because people think they know the story. And and we do too. We think we know it, but then to to look at it uh in a fresh way through uh fresh eyes and and to present it the way you did, um so that in in hearing the story, I heard it in a way that I'd never heard it before. Just in in terms of of how that came about in terms of that of that title. Uh, could you just speak speak on that for a minute?

SPEAKER_00: 3:08

Certainly. Well, you know, Pastor Mapson, I was actually headed on vacation in July. I take the month of July off, and the Holy Spirit said to me, take the book, Ruthless Trust by Brenning Manning with you. And so I did, and I read that book for my own edification, and not even thinking about um sermonizing. But when I came back, the world was in such turmoil, and this current administration was wrecking havoc. And I was led to speak to it, and so I went to the text about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego and the fiery furnace, and felt like we were those individuals. Yeah. And what God was requiring of us is rough ruthless trust. Right. Be it known to you, O King.

SPEAKER_01: 4:03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 4:04

And so I the perspective that I had was of African Americans being brought to this country and the um experience, having the experience of trying to wipe out our identity, our history, right, all of the beauty and boldness and power that is within us. And that's exactly what happened to Daniel and his friends. Right. And so that's the perspective that I came from. And um at this point in our lives, the same thing is happening to us. Right. And I was led then to talk about the ways in which we have to reclaim who we are, teach our children, making sure that they understand fully. So that even if you wipe away our history or don't teach it in school, it's still in our hearts. It's a part of who we are. And the fact that God has called us to be representatives of Him, but also representatives of our rich heritage and history. And we have the power and the authority to resist all the evil that is being leveled against us and others.

SPEAKER_01: 5:19

Yeah. And it seems like the black church now is even more important because if it happens no place else, it it happens. Yes, sir. And always has happened in the black church.

SPEAKER_00: 5:30

That's right. And you and I both know that because we've been pastors in black churches for a long time. Um when I was growing up, though, I was taught that if the nation, the world was to be saved, it would come through the black church. Absolutely. Because we know oppression and opposition in ways that many people do not, especially the majority in this country. But I believe that the black church has a special call and anointing to set captives free. Right. And that includes our own captives, but also of any race, culture, ethnicity, if people are in captivity, I feel a special kinship, and I think we should, to Gaza.

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

And so we have an obligation to um set people free. And I said in the sermon last night, if America really wants to become great, they're gonna have to use uh the leadership and um the wisdom and knowledge that we as great people of Africa have.

SPEAKER_01: 6:45

Absolutely, absolutely. But the wonderful way you dealt with that text and in terms of applying it to uh the the pain of what we ex experiencing today. But then the the word ruthless, which when you when we think of the b word ruthless, doesn't mean what we think it means.

SPEAKER_00: 7:06

No, it doesn't. It means without pity. So we are not to live with pity. We are to live in such a way that our trust of God is unflinching, yeah, it's unrelenting, it's passionate, it will not back down. Right. And we believe that God can do anything, even when God chooses not to do it like we want it done, and when we want it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 7:34

The the the if not, because because there's a theology I think that speaks to this mentality uh God will.

SPEAKER_00: 7:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 7:46

But they said if he doesn't, he's still we're still not gonna bow. He's still and I think you you made that very clear and and needs to be made clear, the the kind of faith that embraces God doing what God wants to do, even if it doesn't please please us and doesn't s necessarily save us in that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:09

That's exactly right. Well, I have a personal example of that in my own life. At this point, I am quite satisfied being single, but when I was younger, I wanted to be married and to have five sons of starting basketball. And so um I prayed and asked God, and you know, I believe that if you uh delight yourself in the Lord, he'd give you the desires of your heart. Well, he never did. Never did. And so at some point I had to have ruthless trust in God and continue life and ministry and be happy about it. I love to preach about the sovereignty of God, but you know, when you talk about the sovereignty of God very simplistically, it means God can do what God wants, whenever God wants, however, and to whomever.

SPEAKER_01: 9:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

And so the sovereignty of God showed up in my life in that regard. God said no.

SPEAKER_01: 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

But I am happy. You you shifted. I shifted God, changed my desires to his. Yeah, which which some people can't do.

SPEAKER_01: 9:18

Right. It's hard. But you yeah, but you got you you did it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 9:24

It made all the difference in my life. It's made all the difference in my ministry and um my outlook on life, my perspective of life. When you talk about trusting God, I've had to trust him. Not just in terms of the ministry work, uh life, personal life work, but the ministry work as a woman in ministry.

SPEAKER_01: 9:45

Yeah, yeah. Let's go back to uh Roanoke, Virginia.

SPEAKER_00: 9:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 9:51

Your beginnings, um, and and uh you know, I think we we we come to faith through persons of faith. I mean, there's there's their parents, they're uh a grandmother, aunt, somebody. Uh can just can you just talk about the soil out of which you came in terms of coming to faith and and setting you on this wonderful journey of faith?

SPEAKER_00: 10:20

Well, I am fortunate in that I had um parents and grandparents who loved God and raised, I was raised in the church, Loudoun Avenue Christian Church. My mother and father named me Cynthia, which means bringer of light. I don't think that they knew that they were being prophetic in that regard.

SPEAKER_02: 10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:39

Um, and so being raised in the church, but I will have to give credit to some of my neighbors. Blanche Craig, who lived on the corner, invited me to child evangelism program in when I was in the first grade, six years old, seven years old. And so that's where I learned the scriptures in a very simple manner. They taught me the scriptures in addition to my home church. But I credit that because it was Blanche Craig who asked me specifically, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? And I said, What's that?

SPEAKER_02: 11:19

What's that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:20

And she explained it to me. And then I asked her one simple question. I said, Is God like my daddy? And she said, Yes, he is. He is as wonderful as your daddy, or more so, Cynthia. And I said, Well, then I want to know him. Uh-huh. Because I had a fabulous father, incredible dad, and uh wonderful mother. And this was my mother who taught me how to pray, to be serious about prayer and Bible study. And so, uh, and my grandfather was a pastor of a small country church in Floyd, Virginia, where we would go. So I was that's where I was nurtured and grew up. And so by high school, I was teaching Bible study in my high school. Um, and my friends laugh at used to laugh and say we were trying to sneak around and have a cigarette, but Cynthia wouldn't let us with her, with her safe self. But I had fun growing up too. But I love God, and so that was the environment in which I was raised.

SPEAKER_01: 12:27

Yeah, yeah. And I and uh BA in music. BA and music, yeah. And we've had several guests in including Reverend Waller, um Bishop Thomas, um uh Lester Taylor. I mean, yeah, this music, kind of music runs through ministry, many of us. And uh what what was that like in terms of your choice of music? You do you play instruments, do you sing?

SPEAKER_00: 12:55

I was a voice major and played piano, of course. But um I grew up in the church singing, learning all the hymns of the church. And so um when I went to college, and I sang at my church too in other places, but when I went to college, it was just a natural for me to choose as that uh my um course of study, music. And so um, and then I had to tell my voice teacher, Oscar McCullough, when I was graduating, that I was not going into opera singing. I was classically trained, but that God had called me into ministry. He said, What? I said, Dr. McCullough, I will not be standing on a stage singing. I will be standing on a stage preaching. I didn't know what that meant fully, but the experience of learning to sing and how to breathe and use my voice creatively is what I do in preaching. Yeah. Because often people will say, it sounds like you're singing. And so I know how to breathe, I know how to preserve my voice. And I think most musicians would say that who are now preachers. Yeah, we've learned that technique and it works in terms of um capturing the imagination and the hearts and minds of individuals. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, using your voice.

SPEAKER_01: 14:30

Right, and I g and also informing you in terms of what worship should should be like what it should be like. Um, that's that whole sense of of a pastor also um being influential in terms of of worship. It's not just a musician's responsibility, it's it's a pastoral responsibility.

SPEAKER_00: 15:01

We are the chief worship leaders. Yes. And so I tell my minister of worship and the arts at the Ray, I said, you know, uh, and he is actually from Philadelphia. Oh, I see. Ryland Andre Harris, yes, he grew up here. Anyway, I tell him, I am the chief worship leader, and we are partners, and we work together beautifully. Because what we want to do is create an a worship experience where people are prepared to meet God in all of God's glory and also to hear the word of the Lord. And so both Ryland and I, and the musicians and the singers and the dancers, we are all preparing the hearts of men and women, boys and girls, to connect in an intimate way with God. And so every pastor does not have to sing.

SPEAKER_02: 15:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 16:00

But I believe that every pastor needs to have clarity about the role of music. It's in the scriptures, the Psalms. Yeah. Um, and make a joyful noise unto the Lord, or sing to the Lord with all of your heart, you know, give him glory. And so um, we need to be able to worship God. When I used to hear people say, Why doesn't my pastor come out at the beginning of worship? I don't care when the pastor comes out, but the pastor needs to come out worshiping.

SPEAKER_02: 16:32

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:34

So there's no way that you know we can really connect with the people and even help connect with God without knowing the importance of worship.

SPEAKER_01: 16:46

Absolutely. And and like you said, worshiping ourselves. It there persons, you know, and I say this in our church, but the ushers, even choir members can can be so busy preparing to do what they want to do. They're not worshiping. And and those of us who are in the pulpit leading worship, if we're not careful, we're not worshiping. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the you're the lead, we're the lead worshipers.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

We are the lead worshipers, and we need to exemplify that. Yeah. And you're right. You know, one of the disciplines that I've had to learn through the years is to be prepared to lead fully in worship so that I'm not trying to figure out the last details of sermon or run the worship experience. So I'm prepared on Sunday morning to just worship.

SPEAKER_01: 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

If something happens out there, somebody else has to handle it because I early in my ministry, I missed worship, sir, trying to make sure the ushers were in place. Yeah. Or this thing was handled or that. I don't do that anymore. I come to worship him. I enter into his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. And then I'm going to worship him the entire time. Again, if something goes wrong, and sometimes I get off and I have to say, call myself and call myself, bring myself back to the point of worship, because I can't preach if I don't worship. Absolutely. Not with power.

SPEAKER_01: 18:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

The freedom comes when the spirit is there.

SPEAKER_01: 18:24

Yeah, absolutely. And and the preaching takes place in the context of worship.

SPEAKER_00: 18:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

It's not performance. Right. It is worship. Right. I am the conduit by which, and I used to pray, God, play on me like an instrument, a piano, sing through me, speak through me, change me as you move through me so that your word might change others.

SPEAKER_01: 18:54

Yeah, yeah. Um the ray is the ray, that's right. Talk about um how ray of hope came about um and and where you were prior to that and and the Lord leading you to this ruthless trust, this uh this well uh and a place of being uncomfortable, like kind of like Abraham, but but you leading you to a place you didn't really know where you were going.

SPEAKER_00: 19:39

That took ruthless trust before I even knew what ruthless trust was all about. When I finished Duke Divinity School, um, I was actually in my junior year, my middler year of a divinity school, I went to be a part-time chaplain at an all-male federal prison. And so when I finished divinity school, that was quite an experience.

SPEAKER_01: 20:08

What was that like?

SPEAKER_00: 20:10

The Catholic chaplain, full-time chaplain, resigned. He retired, and he said to the warden, I'm retiring, but I have prepared this young woman. She's gonna be your next chaplain. And the warden, Gil Ingram, was a progressive person and he was adventuresome as well. He took risks and he hired me. And I became the first female to serve in an all-male federal prison. It was quite an experience. I'll just tell you that um the inmates and the staff took good care of me because there were some guys who were determined one guy was gonna rape me, and he put it out there on the compound. And so the inmates made sure that he didn't get to me and that the officers knew. That's what he said. He wanted to know how much time he would get for rap, right, rap, raping, excuse me, the chaplain. And um, so I had some close calls, but by and large, it was a good experience. It it really was. So that's where I started. And after serving there about seven years, I knew that that was not God's call for my life, not permanently. I wanted to pastor. I was actually also um preaching at a 25-member church in Greensville, North Carolina. They wouldn't call me because I was a woman. If they were a part of my denomination, the Christian Church Disciples of Christ. So the Christian Church Disciples of Christ had a new church start program called Church Advanced Now. And they called me and asked me if I would consider starting a church. I said, no, thank you. I don't want a store for a church. And so, anyway, I had another opportunity, and that was to be the deputy general minister and president of the Christian church. That was the number four position in the denomination. It was a clear pathway to becoming the um general minister and president one day, and that's what I chose. That was not God's will for my life. When we got to the General Assembly in Des Moines, 1985, and I was to be just a routine vote to elect me. The black clergy, male and female, protested and I didn't get the position. They said it was because I was too young, and as a woman, I had not served. I couldn't develop a church, they said. So I didn't get that position. It broke my heart. I said, okay, God, I'll do what you want me to do. Let me pray about it. So I went home to Roanoke, Virginia, and spent a couple of weeks with my parents to pray about it and think about what I needed to do. A friend came by, the house, knocked on the door, and said, I need to see Cynthia. I have a message for her from the Lord. And so my mom called me downstairs and he said to me, God said, start that church, Cynthia. He didn't know anything about me starting a church. I hadn't told anybody. So I went back to Georgia, where I was living at the time, and um moved over to Atlanta and started Ray of Hope Christian Church. Four people meeting for Bible study in my apartment. Four became 40 in Bible study, 40 became 80. We purchased our first building a year and a half into it. 80 people, everybody had their own pew. And then we grew by 100 for the next four years. And in the fifth year, we had a strategic planning session. And during that strategic planning session, we learned God spoke to us and said that we were to become a city of hope where people would impact and transform this present world into the kingdom of God. When I preached that vision and talked about the different aspects of the values that God had given us, do you know that that church grew by 500 the next year? And 500 after that until we were at 10,000. Eddie Long was at on the east and he had 25,000. Creflo Dollar was on the west and he had 20,000. And Cynthia was in the middle, this girl in the middle. And we laugh about it now, you know, Eddie's deceased, but at times we would get together and we started, all of us started the same year. What was going on is we were new, the kids would say New Jack back then, New Jack, fresh start ministry, praise and worship, just preaching a relevant word with young adults coming in droves to our churches. And so we all just kind of blew up. And it was a wonderful experience. What became very clear to me earlier on when God said we were to be a city of hope where people will impact and transform this present world into the kingdom of God, that meant we had to be progressive. We had to be justice-oriented. Right. We had to care for all people, meet the needs of persons high and low. Right, right. Because people who have means have as many needs, of course, spiritually, emotionally, in other words. We were to minister to the whole person. And that's who Ray of Hope has been for the last 39 years. Next year, we celebrate our 40th year. 40th year. Amazing. God's grace is amazing. From Atlanta to Decatur.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

Is that the first one?

SPEAKER_00: 26:15

Yes, we were. No, we were in Decatur in a building with 350 seats. I see. And uh then a class, 25 classrooms and offices. And in 25 years ago in 2000, we purchased Eddie Long's old building, complex actually, with three buildings. And um, so now we have um a 3,000-seat sanctuary, I see, and two other buildings where we house the ministry.

SPEAKER_01: 26:47

I see.

SPEAKER_00: 26:48

Yes. Right. So we're having fun still.

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

Yeah. Yeah. What are the challenges or what well not just were, but are the challenges then of leading a congregation to that point, but recognizing that you you needed a staff, you needed not to be the only one.

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

Um I realized that right away. Because my congregation teases me, or back then they used to tease me, they said, you have four members and four ministries with chair people. I am one who believes in the priesthood of all believers, and so I immediately started empowering people to give leadership to different ministries. And in 1991, actually 99, 90, I went to United Theological Seminary to do my D Men, and my dissertation was Breaking Free from the One Pastor Mentality in Congregational Life that talked about pastoral shepherding ministry. So I empowered the elders, the deacons, and chair people to lead with me and to take responsibility for the different ministries and the people in the church. And that's what helped us to grow. I didn't try to do it all myself. The first 1,000 members, I visited every household. And I also had lunch or dinner with the single people, and so that made a connection immediately with the people. But after that, I turned the leaders loose and said, you all do that. Now we don't go to visit homes like that anymore. People don't want us.

SPEAKER_02: 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 28:46

But they must make a connection.

unknown: 28:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 28:49

And so there are many congregations within Ray of Hope. In other words, each ministry that you have empowered. That I have empowered in each leader.

SPEAKER_01: 29:00

And not feeling insecure.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

Leaders can't feel for that to happen. Yes, and you understand that full well. That we have to release ministry to the people. Right. And of course, we are the bishops. We we take the responsibility to empower and to equip, to release people, to encourage them, and sometimes to hold them accountable. Right. Right. I tell folks all the time, I appoint and I disappoint. Yeah. Because when things get out of line or not, yes. You know, we have to be in a position where we hold people accountable to do the work of ministry that they say they want to do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:48

Yeah. And and and beyond Ray of Hope, um just a a calling to empower others in ministry. Men and women, but particularly women with the the conferences. Could could you talk about um the naming of the conference?

SPEAKER_00: 30:11

Uh sure. The Women in Ministry Conference began 20 years ago. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary. And I was just, when I was preaching in different churches or in conferences, women would come up to me and ask me if I would mentor them. And the reality is I couldn't mentor all of those people. But my girlfriends, the Reverend Dr. Elaine McCollins Flake, and Joanne, Reverend Dr. Joanne Browning and Reverend Dr. Claudette Anderson Copeland and Reverend Dr. Renita Weems and Jessica Ingram and Gina Marcia Stewart, all my girlfriends, Carolyn Knights, we came together and talked about the ways in which we could have a conference, develop a conference, and we did. Carolyn Showwell was a part of us then at that point too. And so we developed this conference to coach, to mentor, to empower, to lead women in ministry. And we've been having the conference every year for the last 20 years, even during COVID, we did it online to empower and equip women for ministry. And what we're seeing is a tremendous outgrowth of women who are now not just associates, and that's a powerful and important position. The number two position is a great position, but we also have women who are in key leadership as senior pastors. More and more women are called to be senior pastors of local congregations. So that's so I see my role as equipping, preparing persons for ministry.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

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SPEAKER_00: 33:02

When I was called to ministry, there were no women around. I didn't know any. I didn't experience any in my life personally. So I decided that the women who are coming along after me would have somebody who would be there for them. And so I am happy and proud to say that my girlfriends and I and others have been serious about the task.

SPEAKER_01: 33:28

Yeah. And and the need to have girlfriends. The need for pastors to have friends and safe places, spaces to ourselves, but also to be encouraged by one another. It seemed like that's so much a part of who you are.

SPEAKER_00: 33:50

It is. And there's some things that you can say in the room with brothers that I could never say. At this point, I don't think there's anything that I won't say, but that's because I'm 73. I say what I want to say. But back then, I couldn't say those kinds of things. And so I need you, I need the brothers to say what needs to be said and to challenge folks. Yeah. When they have when their theology is wrong, when their thinking period is off. Yeah. To say the things that need that will change their minds and hearts and make them more aware, first of all, of the giftedness, the intellect, the ability of women. Right. We can work in partnerships. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 36:06

So brothers need to change brothers' minds.

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

Yes, sir. Yes. Yes, sir. And I want to thank you for this opportunity because you are someone may hear this who has hasn't heard a woman before or doesn't believe women are called or women can lead.

SPEAKER_01: 36:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:25

Yeah. Because that's still out there.

SPEAKER_00: 36:27

It's very much out there in the black church.

SPEAKER_01: 36:30

In the black church.

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

The black church that we just talked about as one of the liberating force, strongest liberating forces in the world.

SPEAKER_01: 36:40

But not liberating each other. Right. Liberating female women.

SPEAKER_00: 36:45

That's exactly right. So how do we talk about the what Paul's words in Galatians 5? For freedom, Christ has set us free. Set us free. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. The words of Jesus. And then hold in bondage women who are created in the image and likeness of God, just like men are. Absolutely. That's what my Bible says.

SPEAKER_01: 37:10

And mine too. Yes, indeed. That's what the Bible says.

SPEAKER_00: 37:13

Our Bible. That's right. The Bible.

SPEAKER_01: 37:16

Right. So as we take to it uh too often uh our own prejudices and and make it say what we want it to say. And we see that with racism as well as as sexism and and all of this too. Just uh a misuse of the of the Bible. That and and and so many people can believe it because they don't know the Bible themselves anyway. You know, even the story that uh uh the three Hebrew boys, we can't assume now in in this age of biblical illiteracy that everybody we're preaching to know even knows the story, which is why you you told the story before exegeting the story.

SPEAKER_00: 37:59

You have to tell the story. Um, I think, and that's where the liberation comes. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. And so as we tell the story as pastors, I believe, preachers, ministers, I believe that God uses those words in uh an awesome way to change the hearts and minds of individuals and help us to become the persons He created us to be in the first place.

SPEAKER_01: 38:34

Yeah. We've had Daniel uh Dr. Daniel Brown on as well, and and she's means a lot to you.

SPEAKER_00: 38:40

Yeah, she's my daughter in minister.

SPEAKER_01: 38:42

Yeah, and and that's that mentoring and of of younger, younger women and and having that those safe places for women to to uh be themselves but to to acknowledge that they're calling.

SPEAKER_00: 39:01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 39:02

And and I've seen her transform a church I've known since I was because I'm I'm from Newark, so Oh yeah, from from being from a child, and I've seen what she's done at Shiloh.

SPEAKER_00: 39:18

It's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. I remember my first time being there. It's a wonderful congregation. I was there for her installation, but through the years, four years now, I've been watching that church be transformed. The people were so open and so available to the spirit and to her. Yes. And that was the wonderful thing uh that happened there.

SPEAKER_01: 39:40

And so So you have to you have to look at her and others across the country and and feel at least a sense of uh just just feel proud of well, you won't say, but I will proud of what you've done.

SPEAKER_00: 39:56

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01: 39:57

You know, and in and in and in helping empower them uh and and to find their voices that were already there but needed to be accepted and received. And and you see what happens in a in the space that she's in in your end. Right. That uh bringing glory to God.

SPEAKER_00: 40:16

It's I am so grateful. Yeah. I am tremendously grateful. I am grateful for to God, and I'm grateful um again to men like yourself who really somebody had to open the door so that I could open the door. Right. And you know, um, if you don't mind me saying this, I'm tremendously excited um because I know that you practice what you preach because your wife was called to ministry, and that's exciting.

SPEAKER_01: 40:51

It's very exciting.

SPEAKER_00: 40:53

I love it. Alan Waller, Reverend Dr. Alan Waller, who I was uh preaching for, Ruthless Trust, um, his wife is very much, she wouldn't call herself a preacher, but oh, she is just engaged in ministry, the ministry uh for human trafficking against human trafficking. So when I see men like you all, that is going to speak to younger men and perhaps older men like yourself. And then my responsibility along with other women is to make sure that we groom the women to begin to take the positions that you all are helping us open the door for. You know, I'm I really believe in this partnership. That's why I went back there because it is so important, male and female. God created us to work in partnership together, both in your marriages as well as in our ministries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:01

You were president of Hampton Conference, and of course, Hampton is uh so popular until we don't have to say the Hampton University ministers. Oh, we got we say Hampton. Right. You don't have to say where it is or anything like just it's just Hampton, and it's been it's so much a part of of uh our experience over the years. I started going to Hampton when when I first started pastoring my first church in 1970. Wow. And going to to Hampton all those years. Um and you you became president right on the end of the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00: 42:40

That's right. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01: 42:42

So I mean, what was what was that like? I mean, that's it's not it it had it it couldn't have been easy because of what we were going through and should we go back to in-person, uh stay online, hybrid, and do hybrid, then a lot of people are not gonna come because they're gonna watch online. But just in terms of leadership at at that particular time for a pr such a prestigious um uh conference, uh attracting people from all over the country and and and and and lecturers and preachers from all over the country. What was that like for you? I I I would assume that they're just things have happened in all of our lives that God has done we didn't never expected to happen at some point, but but but they did, and and here you are or were uh president, second woman.

SPEAKER_00: 43:40

Second woman in the history, Su J. Su J was the first Susan Johnson Cook was the first woman. Yeah. And I started going to Hampton in 1978, and so I was um finishing Duke Divinity School, and my pastor Alvin Jackson took me along with uh Bill Lee, who was one of my classmates and the pastor of my home church at that time. And so I was exposed to vintage Hampton. And of course, you know about that because it started before me. One of the things that uh I kept hearing, not that anybody said it to me directly, but Hampton has changed. Hampton has changed, and it had changed uh in many ways because of COVID. We were shut down for several years. There was um a sense in which we were not meeting and the numbers had declined, and so we had to bring people back. And so I kept hearing that I needed to bring back Hampton. And so I looked for, prayed about, and I looked for the finest speakers, presenters, lecturers, scholars that I could find, younger and older, male and female. As a matter of fact, we had an equal number of men and women. And that was new because that had never happened before. Um, and I did that for two years, and people were slowly coming back. But we had more women come to Hampton than we've ever had. And some men too came. I understand there were men who said they weren't coming back till after I left the presidency. That didn't bother me. I have had a history of that.

SPEAKER_01: 45:36

Of that, right.

SPEAKER_00: 45:37

Running men off. I didn't mean to. Right. But um, but I knew what was right, I knew what was just, I knew what was fair, and I knew the kind of atmosphere that we needed to create at Hampton. Dr. Deborah Hakins, the executive director, a woman. I had her full support. She told me that she would do everything she could to make this the best Hampton experience. And we worked together in a beautiful way. Um, I had spent, of course, 16 years before that sitting on the stage and, you know, working with the other officers. The officers who worked with me, um, who preceded me came after me. We're all one big happy family. And so um Hampton is still strong. Yes, it is. And it will remain strong. And I am grateful that I had that opportunity to lead it. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to say this that before I left office, I made sure there was another woman in place. Yes. And I made sure that it was the kind of woman, Danielle Brown, who will make sure that before she leaves office that there will always be, so it won't be 20 years before there's another woman like it was between Sujay and I. Because she's secretary. She is secretary.

SPEAKER_01: 47:07

Right, and yeah. Right. Because it used to be they had a necrologist.

SPEAKER_00: 47:12

Necrologists, and we took out that is that oh you started there four years in each office. Yes. That's why I was there 16 years. I remember yep, I remember. Right. So that is two years now, and we start with the secretary.

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 47:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we should move a little quicker now.

SPEAKER_01: 47:37

Yeah. And uh Dr. Harold Carter Jr.

SPEAKER_00: 47:42

Dr. Harold Carter Jr.

SPEAKER_01: 47:44

His father was a tremendous supporter of women in ministry. Um, probably one of the first uh I knew to have women deacons.

SPEAKER_00: 47:57

Yes. And his wife, Dr. Weptonoma, she was the first woman to speak at Hampton. Yes. That's right. So, yes. So this has come full circle.

SPEAKER_01: 48:11

Now her son is the president.

SPEAKER_00: 48:15

This is his second year. Well, 26 will be his second year.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

Yeah. Yes, yes. And you have to I know you must be tired, but just talk about how you see the the landscape of the black church in terms of the present and future. Um there is hope for us as as a black church, obviously. What do we need to what do we need to do? Um I I feel this this a sense in which the social justice aspect of in the black church ought to be stronger. I agree. And that there's a con dangerous conservatism in the black pulpit that's not addressing the needs of our people. I see some black men shifting to to a a Trumpism. Right. Um what what do you see? And we all know it's God's church. We s we we we believe that, but but it's so much I think is depends on us. You said no, Reverend Waller said last night about don't pray unless you'll be you you're willing to to do something about your prayer.

SPEAKER_00: 49:56

Meaning you gotta be a part of the Yeah, you can see yourself as the answer to your prayer.

SPEAKER_01: 50:01

Right. Um what what are you what are your thoughts on on the black church now and in the future? And maybe what uh what do we need to do that we're not doing? Um because we are leaving it into the hands as as it was left in our hands to another other generations, uh, younger generation of pastors, men and women. Uh the models of ministry are different for some of them uh than they were for for cer certainly for me and for you as well in your time.

SPEAKER_00: 50:42

Um so how do we what do we what do we what are those challenges like for you as we Well, I think you have named it, you put your finger on the pulse. We see uh a dangerous conservatism that is taking root. Now I don't think that it's new. Um I think that there has always been this dichotomy or this uh split between personal piety and social justice. Yes. I think there needs to be a marriage in the scriptures. There is a marriage. Of course, we are to ensure that people are saved and that they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. But a part of that means that they love God with all of their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and they love their neighbor as they love themselves. So that's the marriage there. That's what God requires of us. What I'm seeing as I travel around the country for years is that there's a church on every corner of most of our communities, but many of those communities remain largely unchanged. There is poverty and there is pain on every corner and in between. And I don't know how a church can exist on a corner where there are hungry people and not feed them. Or they are excuse me, women and young women and boys and men too who are being trafficked and are trafficking individuals. Or they're homeless people, or people who just need somebody to care about them. Folks drugged out and not knowing where they are, with nobody really stopping to confront the issue both personally and systematically. If our communities are going to change, I still believe that it's the black church that will change it. We need to be faithful. I ask the question all the time: what does the Lord require of us to do justice? Justice is not just about the poor, it's about anyone who has a need, who is being oppressed, who is being mistreated, who is not given the right to vote. In this day and time, the black church has got to vote. The black church has got to rise up and speak out against gerrymandering. The black church has got to take a stance in our community, but also in Washington. Yeah. And in the capitals of every the black church has got to resist this present tyranny. We don't have the luxury, yeah. We wouldn't be who we are today if it weren't for the black church. Absolutely. And I think we've become drunk with the wine of the world and not only forgotten who God is, but forgotten who we are and where we've come from. And so we've got to become sober. And this, if we don't become sober at sober at this time, sir, I don't know what's gonna happen to us. Yeah. I really don't. Yeah. Yeah. I still have hope in the black church. Yeah, absolutely. But uh faith without works is dead.

SPEAKER_01: 54:59

Yeah. Any word for women in ministry today um that that can be helpful? And do you see the shift in acceptance? And what is your hope for that as as we continue?

SPEAKER_00: 55:21

I'm tremendously hopeful because I have seen a shift. I've seen um you're from New Jersey. I travel to New Jersey quite a bit, and New Jersey, in my estimation, is leading the country in terms of the acceptance and calling of women in ministry to significant congregations.

SPEAKER_01: 55:43

That's very true, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 55:45

I don't know what's happening in New Jersey, but you know, congratulations. And so that gives me great hope because I see churches so open to the leadership of women. And what I want to say to women is accept your call, be prepared, go to school, go to seminary, be willing to take positions that may not be what you want initially. You've got to start somewhere and learn somewhere. And so, you know, um, I didn't feel called to be a youth pastor, although that's a great position. I felt called to go to this federal prison. I learned how to develop a church in a federal prison because I had to write policy. I had to develop programs, I had to shepherd people, and raw humanity was in that prison. So I did not waste my time in that prison, although that was hard labor. So go somewhere and learn how to pastor and be willing to take those positions that you might not initially think you want to. Well, that's that's powerful. Yes. I would also say this: that if you're in a church and the pastor and people are abusive of you and you're just trying to learn, find another church. Yeah. Because in the women in ministry conference, I hear from too many women who are served trying to serve at a church where the pastor doesn't want them. Well, don't stay someplace where you are only being tolerated or mistreated. Go someplace where you'll be celebrated. Absolutely. Amen. Come on, the Ray of Hope. Come to Georgia, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 57:33

New Jersey or somewhere.

SPEAKER_00: 57:35

New Jersey. There are plenty. I got a whole list. Just be in touch with me. And there are places where you can go where you will be celebrated, but also you will be elevated at the appropriate time because these churches are open to women in ministry. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be afraid of your call. God has called you. Absolutely. And the call is what is most important. When I was found myself being questioned, at least uh everywhere I went, who called you? Why who do you think you are that you can preach, that you can minister? And one day in tears, I ran to my car and I said to God, Who called me? He said, I did, Cynthia. Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart. And I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations. Hallelujah. When I heard that, when I was reminded of that, every time I get a chance, I quote that scripture because God reminded me, I'm the one who anointed and appointed you for ministry. And so I don't have to answer. Just like Shadrach, Meshach, and a bad Negro, I do not have to defend myself in this manner. Because God is the one who called me and set me apart before I was even born.

SPEAKER_01: 59:06

And you had the audacity to believe it.

SPEAKER_00: 59:08

The audacity to believe it. Yes, sir, I did believe it, even when it was hard. When I went to seminary, I'd never seen a woman. I said, God, you mean me? And so, but I went out of obedience. That's the other thing. I say to women and men, do what God tells you to do. Right. Stop all this he and he on and negotiating. Just do what God tells you to do. And God will work out the rest.

SPEAKER_01: 59:38

Yeah. Listen, as the song says, I could go on and on and on. But we can't. This has been a magnificent thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's a joy to know you and to have this conversation with you. Um if today's conversation has Added value to you and to your ministry. We hope that you will subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss an episode. Again, we're grateful for the presence of Dr. Cynthia Hale, Pastor of the Ray of Hope. I always want to say Baptist for him.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:22

Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:23

Everybody said Christian Church. Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia. You've been a blessing to us today. Thank you. And thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:32

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:34

God bless you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:34

God bless you.