Ep 14 – Rebuilding the Church: A Father and Son Rewrite the Rules of Ministry

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. and his son, Jesse Mapson III, share a rare and revealing father-and-son dialogue about faith, innovation, and legacy. Together they trace how a historic Black Baptist church learned to evolve—adding drums, livestreams, and online giving—without losing its sacred soul.

Jesse—known professionally as J. Melodic, an award-winning music producer whose work has been featured by Apple, Disney, the NBA, NFL, and more—brings his world of music, media, and creative strategy into the conversation, reflecting on how those experiences reshaped his view of ministry. From his start as a seven-year-old church drummer to creative director and CEO of MinistryForward Media Group, he shares how excellence, storytelling, and sound can all serve as modern evangelism.

Meanwhile, Dr. Mapson offers the pastoral and theological lens behind the journey, revealing what it takes to guide a congregation through change without compromising conviction. What began as cautious experimentation became a blueprint for digital discipleship and intergenerational partnership.

This conversation explores:

• How openness to change preserves the church’s soul rather than dilutes it
• Turning media and design into tools of ministry and mission
• Why inclusion, belonging, and excellence can coexist in worship
• Lessons for young leaders seeking genuine influence, not just visibility
• Building systems that meet today’s needs—from follow-up to food security

For pastors, PKs, and ministry teams learning to bridge reverence with reinvention, this dialogue offers both wisdom and warmth—a living example of what it means to rebuild the church while keeping its heart intact.

Chapters

• 0:00 Blessing And Purpose Of The Show
• 2:45 Meet J. Melodic: Son And Producer
• 5:30 PK Life Across Generations
• 10:30 Music Roots And First Drum Set
• 16:50 Heritage, Gifts, And Finding A Path
• 22:30 The Drum Debate And Worship Shifts
• 28:00 From Sexton To Media Strategist
• 32:30 Pitching Online Giving And Change
• 37:45 Building Digital Ministry Before COVID
• 42:00 Screens, Livestreams, And Pushback
• 47:20 Adapting Tradition With Vision
• 51:30 Keep Young People In The Center
• 56:00 Systems For Growth And Care
• 1:02:30 Inclusion, Dress, And Sacred Space
• 1:07:30 Why The Podcast: Preserving Legacy
• 1:12:00 Ministry Forward Media And Collaboration
• 1:16:00 Role Swap, Preparation, And Calling
• 1:19:00 Sponsor: Terry Funeral Home
• 1:20:00 Excellence In Worship And Reverence

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 0:00

Raise and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. Uh a familiar uh greeting and blessing from the great Apostle Paul, uh a blessing of grace um which is given to us because we don't deserve it, and peace, meaning well-being in God through Christ Jesus. If I sound excited today, I am, uh, and and I'm excited each time we present this episode of uh the Ministry Exchange, which is designed to um help uh pastors and ministers and leaders in the church uh with conversations about ministry. Um and we've had have had the privilege of uh bringing to you some of the what I call some of the bright lights in ministry uh in the black church and and in the church at large. I'm I'm really excited today because of who our guest is, uh because in a real sense he's not a guest, because in if every episode he is he is present. You just don't see him, and is really the um I I would call him the heart and soul of the podcast, and we'll talk a lot about that as we as we go on. But um, I'm I'm privileged to uh have this conversation with my son. My this is our our third son, Jesse. Um we have sons, uh Keith and Brian, and and Jesse is the third, uh, and is is our youngest. And I want to just read a little of his bio because um it is impressive and and uh I'm impressed by it, and and thank God for him and for all that he does. Uh Jesse Mapson III is a multifaceted creative strategist and visionary leader whose work bridges the worlds of music, ministry, and media. Uh, known professionally as J. Melodic, he has produced for award-winning and critically acclaimed artists across genres, contributing to projects that have reached global audiences and earned major industry recognition. His music has appeared on platforms such as Netflix, BET, ABC, and ESPN, and he's partnered with world-renowned brands including Apple, Disney, the NBA, and the NFL. Jesse has collaborated with both independent artists and major label teams, and his career has taken him across the country and abroad, where he's worked with uh and created and development and has helped to shape culturally uh resonant sound and strategy. That's sounds like a lot, and it is, and I am so grateful um uh for him. Now, beyond that, and beyond being first my son, our our son, uh I I do not uh own him totally as as my son, but uh his mother, who is my wife, uh Minister Shirley Mapson, our our son, um grew up in Monumental, and um in recent years has held a position of creative director as well as director of uh media for the church and and has done an extremely good job um in um um helping our church to I think uh remain on the cutting edge of media and and so with that opening uh welcome uh to a guest who's not a guest.

Jesse Mapson III: 4:24

Yeah, it's it's it's weird being here in this seat.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 4:28

Yes, yeah, yes, it is, and it's weird seeing you in that seat rather than seeing you uh behind the camera. And always um what's behind the camera is as important, I think, as what's in front of the camera. Um and all of this uh you you have made possible. Um and and again, we will we will talk about it uh at a later at a later time. But uh obviously you're a PK. Yeah. I'm a PK. So I mean that's yeah uh and and and representing uh different generations of uh of of that. Um I I I think of course of my years with my father uh and what that meant to me, and then now looking at our years together, me becoming a father and uh and you you the son. Um what let's just talk about what it's like to to come up like that in different generations. I I remember growing up, um I always always loved the church, right? I love church buildings, and so m my mother used to say, your your grandmother of course used to say, uh, even when I was a child and we travel south because that for us was vacation, getting in the car and driving to Alabama, right? Uh no social media, no digital uh uh uh uh whatever you call it, digital platforms and whatever. Right. Just looking out the window. Right. Right. Uh and she would say whenever I would pass, we would pass a church, I would always point to that church. And even today I just love church buildings and interiors and and all of that. And I and so I grew up like that with that fascination, and I spent a lot of time d down at the church with my father. He was in his office, and I'm just roaming around the the building. I found myself uh at the organ, figured out how to turn that on, and and before I took lessons, uh, I actually was just teaching myself um just that and and and I so I was with him all the time. I even I even loved going to funerals with him. Right. I don't know about that one. Right. Yeah. But I did, and and for some reason, particularly uh uh being a pastor himself, he went to a lot of pastors' funerals, and I was just I was fascinated with uh just being around church and around preachers and around him. And and so a lot of what um I came to be was just through that that kind of interaction and that relationship. Uh you know, he he was a j in a generation where preachers, what I would say, looked like preachers, right? Whatever that means. And um, it's not to say that um what that look is or should be, but uh always wore a suit and tie, even at home. You know, he was he would sit uh in in the uh family room in a s in a suit and tie. Um I think I think when we traveled south, he he probably had a tie on. Yeah.

Jesse Mapson III: 8:08

I mean, uh but honestly, like you you you were a little similar too.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 8:12

I was a lot.

Jesse Mapson III: 8:13

Yeah, like and maybe like more recent years, you know, a little bit more lax. Like you not having on a tie right now is that was a step is significant, isn't it? Super, absolutely, yeah. But no, like I mean, a lot of the things you said already, you looking at church buildings when you were a kid. Um, I noticed that you do that still to this day. Um, but first, thanks for having me. Uh I did not schedule myself, right? Uh, but now this I think this is a really cool thing to do. It was definitely weird being here, but right um no other person I'd rather be with having this convo with. So absolutely. Um, so I mean, all of the things that you're kind of you've already said, I I kind of see myself doing the same thing, or I have done the same thing. Uh being at the church, it seemed like every day of the week. I mean, like Tuesday Bible study, Wednesday, whatever, rehearsals, all those things like that. Like I always found myself kind of doing the same thing, like walking through the building, figuring out things, going in places probably I probably shouldn't have gone. But I mean, I I guess in that's in that sense, is it's a very similar thing, just different years. But I think I always love being in church. So I never had a season where I have stopped going to church. Yeah. I went to college close, so I still play drums on Sunday.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 9:39

Talk about that because you are our first drummer. Yes. Second drummer.

Jesse Mapson III: 9:44

Second drummer. Eric was first.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 9:45

Right, right. Eric was the first. But it was a time of transition in in um worship and music in the black church because some some younger uh pastors and and and persons may not uh know it of a time when there were no drums in in the black church.

Jesse Mapson III: 10:05

Yeah, you you watch some old monumental videos.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 10:07

And and maybe maybe in Pentecostal churches, yeah, before Baptist churches, but that was uh a a transition that in some churches caused some issues. Uh I won't say it caused an issue in Monumental, but I would say it was it was something that was uh people especially many of the older people had to get used to, and so did I. Right uh um and and so we did it gradually.

Jesse Mapson III: 10:37

Right. We did it. It was one, it was so I think it was fifth Sundays first.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 10:41

It was or first Sundays. It was first Sundays. And and for concerts. First Sundays and concerts. Kind of how we got it, yeah. Got it in there, and and then and and there were people who were not malicious at all, or or um I I wouldn't even say they were unkind. They just, you know, on the Sundays with when y'all have the jumps, I'm not coming. Yeah. You know, there were there were a couple now now that changed, and and at at some point they they were coming and they were you know clapping and everything. Yeah. But it was it was a transitional period, and you were what like six or seven when you started.

Jesse Mapson III: 11:23

Yeah, I started I started playing drums at s at eight, seven, seven years old. Yeah. So I think uh and my and my gradual kind of was a gradual thing too. So um Eric was our first drummer. Eric was the first. And um I was able to play when we used to do, I think most a lot of churches call him Pass in the Peace when we would go around and greet each other.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 11:45

Yes.

Jesse Mapson III: 11:46

And I would play What a Fellowship. So that was the first song that I got to play every week. Really? And then gradually I got maybe a little song offering or something like that here and there. And then eventually, Eric, I think I was around the age of 12, and Eric started working, and his schedule made him be there on the weekends, and I got to be the primary drummer, and I was it was um, I always love music because you guys, music, I've always been around it. Yeah, I mean you have a music book, so it's like it's like for me, it's it's always been a part of who I was. So I think well, I remember I played piano too. So I started off playing piano, but kind of the same thing you were saying, where I would find myself in the church and I would go to the piano or the organ and then the drums were there, and I would just start teaching myself how to do those things and then got lessons and all that. But really, I've always, even with my studio career, I've always prided myself on being able to figure it out myself. Yeah, um, in most cases. Right, right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 12:51

And and look, and I think the heritage part is important because what we look back, uh your your maternal grandmother, your mother's mother played a little guitar or something.

Jesse Mapson III: 13:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, grandma, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. She played that. Yeah, she played guitar and like a little bit of organ. Remember, she had an organ in the house.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 13:11

Right. I remember. And and my mother actually was in the choir until started raising a family, but she was that's my my dad met her in the in the church he he went to pastor in Talladega, Alabama. She was in the choir. Right. Sounds like your mother. Yeah, sounds similar to the church I went to pastor, she was also in the choir.

Jesse Mapson III: 13:33

And that's how I met my wife too.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 13:35

Yes.

Jesse Mapson III: 13:36

Yep.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 13:36

Yeah. Met my wife that way too. Yeah. And and so my so my and my mother also played the piano and made made sure that all of us took piano lessons, whether we liked to or not. Right. Right. Uh and and my dad is not a singer or anything, but he was um uh, you know, music was in his preaching, right? Yeah. And preaching style. Um, so that's that's kind of the uh an inheritance, I think. And um, and it just became a part of you without us really all of a sudden we looked around and here you were coming along in that same It was it was never something that I felt like you guys forced me to do.

Jesse Mapson III: 14:18

Right. So I never felt like because your mom sings, because your dad plays, that now you have to do that. I naturally fell in love with music so much, so much so to the point where even for a career, I w I went to school to be a sports agent. Right. I remember I hadn't no no idea about anything about music until that kind of came on a little bit later. But I've always I've I had experience already playing music, so it kind of just was natural, a natural transition, but it wasn't something I sought out to do. Yeah, um, but I always loved music, and then looking back on it, remember I used to burn like CDs, I used to do that. Um, and so it kind of just everything I was always messing around on the piano and the living room and just things like that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 15:00

So you had a keyboard, yeah.

Jesse Mapson III: 15:02

Cassio, right, right, yeah. And then I used to use the the chairs as drums, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it it it made sense, it makes sense now where I where I am and and kind of like how I've developed over the years. But in the beginning, for me, I I didn't really ever see myself as a music person at all. Yeah. I I really I was so focused on playing sports, and then when I realized that that was a one in like 10 million chance, I was like, I want to be involved in sports, so I want to be a sports agent.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 15:32

That's right. I remember. Yeah, so I remember.

Jesse Mapson III: 15:35

But yeah, that's just kind of like the the the the example that you guys had in the household was never was a forced example, it was always very natural. You listen to classical music, you would have it playing in the background all the time, even at the office, uh the study, sorry. Right, yeah, in the study you would have it playing, and so it just it was I was always around it. Yeah on the car trips down to Florida, we would play uh The Temptations and everything. So I just was always around Lady's soul, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 16:04

Don't sing it. No, I'm not gonna sing it. I'm not gonna sing it. But that that um you know that that whole journey of of you growing up and um um just kind of in in inheriting inheriting inheriting that, but also making your own path. Um you know, for me uh and my and maybe my generation, the path was kind of set. Uh high school, you go to high school, you finish high school, you go to college. And and of course, in in in my home, that was just a given, you know, that's something that you did. Um and that's and that was the track that I was on and from from there to seminary. So it was it was kind of like laid out for me. And uh I think every parent has to um figure out how um to to allow their children uh to find their own path. Right. Right. So um you know who helped me helped me with that is one of you you have a lot of uncles, right? A whole bunch of uncle. Uncle BJ, Reverend Whipper. Reverend Whipper was like an older brother to me, and um was pastoring Elizabeth at New Zion when I went to there to pass the union. He was um great admirer of my father, and um uh you know, had two sons and two daughters, and so I I talked to him a lot about uh parent parenting. And he he was a preacher's kid, his dad was a prominent pastor in South Carolina. Uh and so we had we had that kind of connection, and and he helped me to to to give that space uh to you uh and your brothers as well, but particularly to you in terms of of of of of college and and your your own path uh because he said that you know you did that. He he he really talked about the generations and the and the pressures that can be on uh a son who has the father's name. Yeah. Right. He he was BJ Whippo Jr., right? Yeah, what his oldest son was was BJ the third. So him uh and here my dad is senior, I'm junior, you are the third, and and uh that that whole PK uh uh phenomenon that that I grew up in, and that and and because I did I was very conscious of uh not wanting our children to feel the weight of that. Um and I and I remember uh when we first went went to Monumental, of course you were you were born three three years after I went there uh and you were coming along, a young youngster, and and one of the ladies um came to me and said that that she thought you should be on the junior ushers. Right. Right? Um and and I said to her, Why do you think that? And she said, Well, if if your son is on there, that might encourage other children to get on there. And uh my response was that my son is not is not the church's son. It's he's our son and and we should not put pressure on and I and and I s I I taught I taught our people, many some of them, to do that, to just preachers children should be themselves and children growing up. And um there should be no greater expectation on them than than your own sons and daughters. Yeah.

Jesse Mapson III: 20:22

Um I mean you you guys did a uh excellent job for me and my brothers of just giving us that space to figure out who we were. Right. Um, I think especially now, like with the generations of how we're being raised, I think there's so many things to choose from. Um, there's so many uh avenues you can kind of go and do. And I think you guys were you gave me enough space to be able to figure out what made me happy, um, and also what I was good at, too. Right. Um because I felt like I could still even come to you and have those conversations with you. Like, hey, I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with being in school, like these are the things that I'm struggling with. I really think that I want to do this. And I would say, like, even my leap into music was something that it was probably like I never asked you this though, but like, were you kind of shocked that I wanted to do music, or was it?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 21:23

I wasn't shocked.

Jesse Mapson III: 21:25

Okay.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 21:25

Yeah.

Jesse Mapson III: 21:26

And then also it it wasn't I wasn't being a church musician. Right. So that was like, you know.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 21:33

Yeah, I wasn't shocked by that at all. Okay. Uh with uh the music or the fact that it wasn't necessarily church music. Um I I had have issues with uh lyrics, some lyrics in in music that's that's that's popular music, uh particularly with young people. But uh w you know, I I think we tr I think we trusted what what we instilled in you and taught you, and and even with with that, um that that's the a culture that you were in, right? Right. But even with that uh says nothing about a person's integrity and character. Yeah. Um and so You said you said that to me.

Jesse Mapson III: 22:25

When you said that to me, I had in my mind, I was like, I feel a hundred percent confident with doing this. When you said that, when you said it, because it was it was difficult not to necessarily have a conversation. It's not like you guys made me listen to gospel music growing up. Like I could still listen to whatever I wanted. I enjoyed music, you know, maybe stuff you didn't know I was listening to either, but for the most part, I had the freedom to do that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it, I mean, when you said when you said what you said that day, I I don't even remember what we were doing, where we were, but you you said those kind of those exact words. For me, that gave me the green light to say, okay, I'm 100% confident in doing music the way that I want to do it. Figuring out my own standards and morals for what I'm I'm willing to do and things I'm not willing to, because there's been a lot of things I've turned down because it just it didn't align with that. But that also came with my growth and the older I got. Yeah. Because in the beginning, when you try to get into the music industry, you just want to work with whoever, um, even if they're not paying. You just want to get, you know, notoriety. And I was always saying that to you guys, like, hey, I gotta get my name out there, I gotta get my name. Yeah. And you know, I'm just willing to kind of at that point just do whatever. But I still had like some very core values for me growing up in church, knowing that my dad's a pastor. And going back to the point of the name, I never felt the weight of our name in a space because I I just never thought that I would get into things that would like people would look at me any type of way. Right. Or like look at you guys any different. Um I I was a pretty chill kid, I feel like. Life was very chill for me. Um, I love church, I love playing sports, you guys let me do all those things like that. I love music. So I and I think that it's also a different level, too, when you have, and you wouldn't say this about yourself, but when you have a father that has a certain level of prominence, it can be a heavier weight. Um, and I have friends that, you know, fathers are, you know, everybody knows them and everything like that too. So we have those kind of conversations, and I think more times than not, we've never really felt like we had to do or be or act like or this, then the third because you guys made it very normal. But like I think that there's definitely two two sides of it. Yeah, bearing a name, and I'm not I'm not trying to be funny, but and the person doesn't really know your dad, as opposed to your dad being a little bit more of a person that is known. Um, definitely two different, I feel like would be two different things.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 25:12

So yeah. But yeah. I I cringe sometimes when it if somebody says to you, if you mean you with me, uh what you're about to say. Are you a preacher? You know, almost as if why not? You should be. Yeah. And and I I think that's like the the the weight uh that PKs even even uh women now because so many there are so many women in ministry whose whose fathers and maybe mothers are preachers or pastors, but you know, when when somebody says that um it's like you know, I I cringe because I feel it's so unfair. And and I don't there's no ill intent either. It's just like you you must be and the fact that you and the fact that you are as close to minister. I think there is a call to to to minister and a call to minister to the minister. I think you said something. And and uh and I just it I just really thought about that. Now that's saying it that uh you're you're calling and you you have become for me really an as assistant pastor. Wow. Um in terms of just taking up you it just happened, you just started helping and do you remember how it happened?

Jesse Mapson III: 26:45

Like do you remember kind of like the the time of cause I know my timeline, but I just was interested. Kind of like is there like a moment or something like that that do you remember like hey this this kid's kinda he's helping me out?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 26:59

If it was if it was a gradual something post-COVID, I think, or at least nope, nope, no, in in the midst of COVID.

Jesse Mapson III: 27:09

Yeah, that was that how you yeah, for sure.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 27:12

Um because I think then you could talk about this whole media, right? How you um you how you came to this point. Yeah. And and and and like the music, it just haven't started growing in you, and then what you've done for the church in terms of a model of of media ministry, and and I call it the new evangelism. You know, and we talked about how many people uh we asked people how they how did they come to our church. Yeah. And and there are people who say, you know, that they they go on social media and look look for churches, and and that website has to say something. Yep. Right. So anyway, I won't No, that's cool.

Jesse Mapson III: 28:02

Um, so around the time when I was I had transitioned from college, I started working at the church and I was a sexton. Right. And um Brian was too for Brian was listen.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 28:15

So was I when I was I was in my dad's church and I would go. I mean, I didn't do a whole lot of sextoning cleaning.

Jesse Mapson III: 28:25

Yeah, I didn't, but no, I wasn't opening.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 28:28

I did a lot of op opening and closing because that that time we had afternoon service. Yeah, yeah. I knew all of the light switches in the church. I knew ever I knew that church.

Jesse Mapson III: 28:39

That's I think KK's know the church inside out, period. Because I mean I know every light where it goes, like, and then even when we got the new lighting system, I know what buttons I actually programmed the lights. I called the the company, this was years ago, and I'm like, hey, how do I do this? And but that was like really my start was me being a sexton at the church. Um, you know, truthfully, not really cleaning too much. Um, I was there for rehearsals, but I was there every day.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 29:07

I hope none of our trustees are watching this.

Jesse Mapson III: 29:11

So every um, but yeah, just that that's where it started. So I started bringing my laptop with me. And um in between me trying to like make some beats during the day and stuff like that, I would sit in the trustee room and I'll be on my laptop. And I just started like Googling churches and just looking around at websites, and that's when websites were like the big thing if you had to have a huge, nice website. And I just started looking at stuff and just started getting intrigued with like more with church and like the workings of church and like why people are attracted, what attracts people to churches, and like you know, is it a website? Is it that we have online giving at the time and all these things like that? Like, what are the things that people are looking at that are bringing them to church? And so that just really. fascinated me. So um started doing a lot more less cleaning uh and just more researching and then I thought I think where it started turning with with us gradually again was I think I started paying I started saying things to you because you would be at in your study and I would come up and like hey I have an idea and I remember the first time that I bought online giving to you and he was like absolutely not not doing it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 30:27

I'm guilty absolutely not the world no I'm I'm yes absolutely not he absolutely not didn't want to do it but why so okay I'll let you in and and the reason okay was from my my biblical understanding of giving right bring ye tie to the storehouse that it was ask it a colleague of mine says you don't want you don't have you don't have to be you don't give to be seen but you ought to be seen giving right and for me it was a part of worship um guy Reverend Guy Campbell said that uh that that was a part of the the the witness of the Christian to to to be do that in in worship. We're talking about in person I we didn't know that word then it was worship that's all it was and so I I I felt that way um for a while you know for a while and so and and that's how I would give you know we had the envelopes remember envelopes with the numbers on it with the numbers then the kids had little like little lions and things we actually remember we the tithers came first.

Jesse Mapson III: 31:44

Yep I remember that Tithers came first and then you had offered the regular offering and I felt that that was the the the m only model I I had ever known right and and that it had had scriptural basis and I was I was thinking from that lens at the And it also just wasn't a lot of churches in our area doing that yet either like the online thing was for megachurch really was really the model the the mega churches were doing the online giving they were ro having robust websites and all of these different things and you know you started seeing people credit card yeah you know credit card machines and and all that so like that was the you didn't see the local black church doing that. Right. And so I understood probably no I did not understand at the time why not right like why you wouldn't want to do it. But I think because you were so and you've and I I wanted to talk about this and your openness to just everything that I've presented to you even if we don't do it the fact that you hear it and you listen and you want to understand and even if it's still no you at least know and you might even think about it and come back to it later because the online we ended up doing online giving maybe two years later. Before COVID we were before covet we started all that stuff we were we started recording and this is before I took over the media uh department at the church but we've been doing DVDs and CDs forever we're doing cassette my brother was doing cassette when we went to monumental that was 86 Brian Brian and um um keeps just written oh anwar and uh andre jamil yes yeah yeah they were in the in the side there with the little with the cassette recorder right and that's how we so that that was the gradual thing but even with video like we were we had an old security system as our cameras in the sanctuary right to record and I just remember going back there and getting interested in that stuff too. So like all the things that I do now make sense for how I was as a kid and my interest level not even just seeing it then though. Yeah but your openness to being saying like let's revisit this conversation of online giving because I think it became a little bit more of a conversation. Yeah. And for you I think that for me that was the moment where our relationship started shifting and we started doing ministry together. Yeah it's true. And it was a gradual it's been gradual but like now we're just we're all in it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 34:17

Like I I know everything that's you know that's going on you know not personal stuff but like for the most part we have a really good relationship of how we do ministry together I feel I think yeah and and I think a the church's openness yeah uh church churches have to be open and the leadership yeah absolutely has to be open to uh the evolving and and and for me that that evolving uh came about by asking questions right asking myself question why is why is this the only way and they didn't have online giving in biblical times so yeah so how can we make this make sense or does that make it wrong is that and how how is God speaking to us in this generation and and that's when the words uh reimagine absolutely uh actually I may actually I may have heard Dr. Woodard use that word in s in something a sermon or something but but just just how much how that word reimagine reimagine renew restart all of those reh reimagining uh church and reimagining worship for the the the hymn there's there's a hymn that uh the words are to serve this present age right my calling to fulfill omaic my power engage to do my master's will it was a it was a hymn used a lot of times in ordinations of preachers to serve this present age and and that's what we have to do right and so and so that shift for me was easier because um I I felt I was listening to God and God was saying God was saying to me it's all right to do that right it's alright to do it to do it this way um and so we were we were doing that I I also think it's important for churches to have young people involved not just as ornaments. Yeah you know we got a hundred young people give them running around you know give them a s of a a Sunday a year yeah for youth day I mean and and we ought to do that too but to to involve them in the the reimagining because that's all they've ever done and all they're used to and so keeping young younger faces even it's also our church.

Jesse Mapson III: 36:58

Yeah like it's it's our church even in the present time because we always say young people we want to have a future church but we're we're here already yeah so like even at a younger age we're still there and if if I feel like if for churches to expect young people to just say this church is so amazing I want to go there or even for a young person that grows up in the church and says I want to still stay there you got to be able to allow them to be involved early. Yeah and it's again it's not just the you know these are those Sundays are nice but not just those Sundays not just those that one day a year where they have youth day um or they're about to the wood and it's just like we have all these who knew all these kids were here. Yeah and then you know you kind of you put them on display and then you put them back in the show on the shelf or in the box.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 37:48

Right.

Jesse Mapson III: 37:49

And then they're doing all these things either or they're not doing all these things behind the scenes or they are and nobody knows about it either. Keeping it internal as opposed to going out into the community and getting getting the kids in our community that really could use the things that we offer as churches.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 38:05

Yeah yeah um yeah so well well and and and that that live stream all that was in place uh prior to the pandemic didn't know the pandemic was coming literally it was it was we put that new system in we put it in in September September of nineteen I I gabs months before the pandemic was the next March. Yeah it was six it was that was almost what like six five six months in what and and the the the generosity of a member to do that yeah to who who went on vacation and said wow I miss my church I wonder why came back and saying what can I what can I do to to help us and and that gift a financial gift that allowed us to buy those screens and then and then seeing those screens the first time uh kind of like as an intrusion on the house of God.

Jesse Mapson III: 39:05

Oh man because we had to take down the hem board remember the hem the say hem and then you put the hem of the whatever the number would be we had to take those down oh man that was a sense of some people may have been saying what do we what do we need those screens up people are absolutely saying that. Yeah. And I think that that's the same kind of conversation in other churches everywhere.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 39:23

Yeah. Um but it's the it's the it's the discomfort of change. Yeah so so even going back to the drums that these are these are transitional moments in the life of the church to the point where it becomes a part of the scenery after a while. You don't you know you expect it you know you expect it but look at how that has helped to broaden broaden ministry for us in terms of nobody knew we were doing that project either.

Jesse Mapson III: 39:53

Right. Because remember one Sunday the hymn boards were up in between the lights then they came back the next Sunday we got TVs and no hymn boards. Right. So that was that wasn't something where we announced it like hey this is what we're doing this week and you're gonna see a new sanctuary. Right that's true. They came in there and they we had at least we had 65 70 inch TVs on this on the wall right you're right I didn't I didn't say anything about that. But I mean it again going back to what I was saying before just your openness to even look at where we started with saying no to online giving and then now where we are where we're actually shooting even a podcast. Yeah that's your openness that's the way that we've been able to work together and then even me bring ideas but also you've bring so many ideas for me too where I'm thinking I'm like man what else can I do? I'm like all right this is good like and then we help with the company Ministry forward media we help other churches do the same thing. Right. So we've taken it from a sextant position where I'm just giving some ideas like hey I saw this church look there was my line was I saw this church do this can we do it and what we had what I had to realize after a moment was just because another church does does it doesn't mean that we should do it but if we are going to do it we have to make it work for us. Right it can't the the connect our connect ministry came from First Baptist Uncle Buster's church uh Reverend Stories and First Baptist of Lincoln Garden yeah that were the connect ministry idea the gifts that we give to visitors when they came that was those were that but we couldn't we we should have not copied exactly what they did but use it as a just kind of like a launching path for what we need to do and make what we mean to make it for our churches.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 41:51

Yeah yeah so many ideas have have come to us to me just by being in other worship services.

Jesse Mapson III: 42:00

Yeah just sitting around just just looking and like for me I was I started watching when I was the sexton again uh I started watching a lot of services because that's when again that's when that was starting to become popular live streaming too um so I'm watching services I'm looking I'm paying attention I'm like oh this is cool this is cool this is cool and I'm like that's actually not cool you know like I'm figuring out what what for me what what do I want church to look like for me like if I'm gonna be here in my church and I want it because it's so easy for us to say my church doesn't have this I'm going to leave so it's it's easier for a person to leave as opposed to just staying where you are and building that for me I've always said for my church I can't be a hypocrite I can't say that oh we don't do this we don't do this and I haven't tried to make it happen. Yeah or haven't been a try to be a part of a team that try to make it happen or transition it because the truth is is if again we're here now and we want to especially the generation like mine and the generations that are coming we feel at times a sense of entitlement we sit we feel some at times like a sense of we want to be a part of something. So if we feel alienated it's way easier for me to go to the church down the street that has the stuff that I want to do as opposed to staying there and building but I just believe and maybe this is the old spirit in me but like I just believe you can stay where you are and make that happen as long as your leader and the leaders around you are open to that. Yeah. Putting that trying to put that best effort forward. And if it doesn't work it doesn't work. Right. Ultimately and if you feel like you're being led somewhere else and you feel like you're really being led and it's not just because something didn't go your way at this time. Yeah it's not mad at somebody just because you told me no on one thing doesn't mean that you'll say no on another maybe it just wasn't a time for that. Maybe I don't see the vision as a young person and I think sometimes we we kind of get into that where well Pastor we want to do this now we we need to do this now. We need to get young people in but maybe your vision is a little bit different or maybe it's just not time for that to happen. Maybe we have to grow ourselves and other things around it. So we've spent years developing our digital systems at the church being able to handle the hundred plus people that have joined our service I mean have our joined our church in the last couple of months this episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner Terry Funeral Home Incorporated.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 44:36

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Jesse Mapson III: 45:32

Would we be able to have handled that when we got right out of COVID how what would that have looked like if we had 10 people joining one Sunday are we still filling out cards in the back you know or are we you know are we taking the leap and saying I know this is uncomfortable for everybody we're gonna bring out iPads but everybody's gonna get an email and we won't have to pass a paper around yeah and again that doesn't work for every church but what can work for ours is really right yeah yeah I I really like the the idea that we have eight liberal conservative because we're all some of both at least I am and and when we came up with this label of traditional church as as opposed to what what and and then we kind of label the traditional church as something that's in the past and archaic and we ought to get past that but but that that blend of of connecting the contemporary to a tradition that that gives us the world's about to open back up and so they were just like hey no this is we gotta shut this down for a while.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 48:25

I thought we were gonna be closed for two weeks.

Jesse Mapson III: 48:27

Yeah. I I remember I remember that last it was like hey there you know it's a little virus but and I'm saying I'm saying we're gonna miss two weeks of offering it won't kill us that's crazy.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 48:41

Well no I like but I remember going back to the growth piece when I first came and I was you know trying to motivate the people there needs to be we need to look at something. So so if I said I've I've been saying we've you know for the last several months we want two hundred new members right uh celebrate our two hundred by the end of next year.

Jesse Mapson III: 50:46

Um but I also said at the end of that period how many of the 200 are still there and what are we doing to to follow up to to to to connect them with you know persons in the church who will help care for them right so that people don't get lost in the tracks and lost uh in the cracks and and how do we stop that revolving door you know come you coming in on on a high moment and we celebrate but where are you a month from now or or a couple of weeks from now uh what did like joining that when you joined that Sunday what did that actually mean for you and in the weeks and months to come like what what was that actually like what were looking at what were what were your classes like yeah were your classes and if you come with needs can we other than spiritual yeah we need to be able to fill them how how do we put you in the right place with the right people because the needs now for my for our for 2025 are way different than when you first got there. Yeah so like we have issues of mental health that's a huge thing we have food insecurities we have all these things do we have I don't know just do we have the resources and the people within our churches that are able to handle when those things happen. Yeah um there's so many more guidelines now because of like you know laws and things like that even when it comes to like background checks for working with kids like you have to be able to move like how almost with with the world all I feel like because when you come in from your job on throughout the week what's the difference when you get to church why should we treat the church any different yeah when it comes to even structure and working within guidelines and looking at a vision you you wouldn't tell your your boss I I hate your vision I'm not gonna do it and then think you still go have a job. You know what I mean so if the pastor is laying out the vision or if your executive director or your creative director or whatever you have is laying out visions for that why why are we how can we the it should be how can we get on board because clearly there's a need somewhere that you recognize and how can we fulfill that need.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 53:08

Yeah yeah so let's let's close with with talking about the the podcast yeah um and and also uh uh the company yeah uh because when you s you came to me about a podcast I say what's a podcast not not I did know somewhat what a podcast was but it was more of a question like why why why would I want to do that at my at this season of my life in ministry right yeah what why would I want to do this right and that's why I think it's important again um to have have younger people uh that that that you will be open to and listen to to hear them out in terms of the why you answered you answered the why here we are here we are right here we are 14 episodes you're the 14th episode yeah you've come from behind the camp on the other side to the to the chair couple years ago you wouldn't have got this and uh here we are with the podcast which for me um is the extension of the pulpit yeah right there is a pulpit at 50th and locust where God allows me to stand it every Sunday or most Sundays but then this is a the the new pulpit for this this time that that allows us as as did the live stream and all of that to to reach more people with the kind of conversations um real conversations with with pastors um and see our humanity absolutely not just the titles and um you know all of the what comes with being a a black pastor you know that's that's uh uh that's something in and of itself and even even in terms of the of the preaching out a friend of mine said he he been has some health problems and he said uh he asked the doctor could he could he preach to return his pulpit and doctor said oh yeah you can return in a week or two and I said you you you he knows that you're a black Baptist pastor preacher and the preaching ain't like that any place else if you I mean it's blood sweat and tears right um but but in terms of just the podcast and the company just say say a word about that and the the because the this it was a vision uh and and and something for me several things for me and never never dreamed about well never dreamed about being at at church for thirty at church for 38 years but uh being able to to uh teach in the seminary again and what a joy that is and this podcast for me represents m my next chapter still pastoring still love it uh more and more I love I enjoy preaching now more than I ever did. Really? I I really do.

Jesse Mapson III: 56:34

I like that but uh this is a the new a new chapter though the podcast and this so just so the the why was I I thought about it because I would I would I I'm gonna okay so this is what this is really this is I don't even think I told you this but when Uncle Charles Booth passed I thought about the fact that my dad has now lost a friend that probably knows him better than anybody I thought about the fact that the stories that you guys shared you will be the only one telling it and so it made me think about just even the last time we were together with him when we went to Larry we went no we went to Jim's cheesesteaks on South Street and we had cheesesteaks and just as a I was in my either late 20s 30s around that time late 20s thinking about at that time he was sick yeah um but he was pushing through and I was sitting there and I was thinking I'm like this is so cool like just hearing these stories about Gardner C. Taylor and um J Pius Barber and like like just hearing these stories were cool. Like definitely not really my lane but it was just cool to hear you guys like really reminiscing about those days the cars you used to drive looking at the pictures of the stuff you guys used to wear. I mean it was just very interesting and so like it really the the first idea for that really came from losing him and understanding that like now on Saturdays or Fridays and you call like hey doc what you preaching tomorrow that's no more with with him. Yeah um and so for me I looked at your legacy and I said what is that like what does that look like you've accomplished so much in your life you've you've done so much and I'm again like you said like things that you never probably imagined um and I just think it's really cool to think like for you as my dad but also like taking myself out of that seat just I just think you're really a a cool person. So like I started thinking like all right what's another way and we're not announcing retirement we're not saying you're retiring or anything but what's another thing that at that point if that ever when that point does come or ever comes what's this going to look like for you afterwards and who's gonna be here and you said this on a podcast before with uh Uncle Walter and other people but you're the last ones to be able to tell these stories from a f a firsthand point of view uh about Gardner C. Taylor and and Samuel Proctor like you guys were able to sit down and talk to them and be around them and all those things like that. So that's the long version of really why and it's really for me my short answer is preserving your legacy um people to be able to go back and watch these episodes in 10, 20, 30 years and for you to still be able to be a very relevant person for people that you are now 20, 30, 40 years down the whole. So that's the that's the shorter answer. Um It's something that I've I've done a lot musically. I've done a lot when it comes to the church, and my brain never shuts off. So I just I think I was watching a podcast one day and I was just like, I wonder how like my dad would be, you know, on a podcast. And I just started envisioning it when I came to you. I came to you about the company first. So Ministry for Media Group, which is the group that we uh co-own together. Um, co-owner CEO, co-owner C FO. Um I came to you about that before because we've been doing this in an unofficial way for so many years, too. I've been helping churches in different ways. You've done the same thing in leadership development. So I tackle the AV side and the websites and all those things, and you tackle the leadership development. And together, I think that our partnership that we've developed through our own church has been able to bless other churches as well. Um, it is very weird sometimes getting calls and people are like, Hi, Reverend Matson. I'm like, are you looking for me or are you looking for my dad? And there's like now they're looking for me as well. But that goes from us, I think us being able to show how this works. Right. 80 years old and 35. I mean, we we're we're locked in. We're we're we're pretty good. So yeah, yeah. I I hope that answers kind of what you were saying. It does, or what you were asking. But yeah, it was really, it was really legacy. The podcast is huge for and just the success that we've seen in this first season of it, and just uh the success that we look to continue to have. Uh we didn't know what success really looked like for this. But right from I think the success for us has been random people coming up to us at times and or at least me seeing that with you, because I'm always with you now too, uh, and just telling you, hey man, love the podcast. Yeah. And like sometimes we in the beginning, remember, we were looking back like, huh? Like, oh, okay, cool. Don't even know who you are, but thank you. Um, but just being able to see that and just to see how comfortable you are, too, from the first episode till now, I mean, people have called me and said, like, man, your dad's a journalist. And I was like, I don't think he went to school for it, but you know, he's turned into, you know, so all those things have have gone together, and I think I I'm very happy where we are now, and that we're doing it together too.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:02:20

Yes, so am I.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:02:21

All right, so I have uh a couple of questions for you. Oh yeah, and then we're gonna we're gonna wrap it up. I have control over this.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:02:32

I thought I was the uh Yeah, yeah.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:02:34

We're just gonna switch roles for a second.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:02:36

This is uh Minifix saying with Dr.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:02:39

Maps and Yeah, well, we have the same last name, but I guess you can remove the doctor this part. Um, if we switched roles for a week and you had to do what I do and I had to do what you do, what would go wrong first? Everything. Yeah. You didn't even let me finish.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:02:59

Okay, good.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:03:00

I mean, but that was it, but yeah, okay, cool.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:03:02

Uh if I did what you did.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:03:05

Yeah, and I did what you did. Yeah, I feel the same way too, though. Yeah. I don't know, I don't know if it would go wrong, it just wouldn't come off probably as good as how it comes off for you. Yeah, because it's in your your gift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't live in each other's gifts, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:03:18

Um I do, I do admire how you, I mean, you're always searching um, I mean, websites. You're always researching. Yeah. And that's fun for me. And you call me and say, Dad, yeah, yeah. I don't know if you're gonna like this, but I mean, just always get getting ideas. Um it it is it is ministry. You know, it is it is ministry.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:03:50

I've looked at it that way more so over the last year since we've started this than ever before. Yeah. Um, and that's why I feel confident in saying, going back to earlier what you were talking about with people when it's like a cringy moment when they're like, Oh, you're gonna be a minister. Or I've heard that since I was probably can't remember how old I was. But I'm confident in saying before it was a weird way for me, it's like, no, not yet. Right. Or no, I don't I don't think so. Or no, that's not me. And then no, it then it turned into nah, I would never no, that's not me at all. So that was like a different phase. But now for me, my answer is I'm in ministry in a different way. Yeah. In a way that I feel is helping churches, but I'm just not behind a pulpit every week. Yeah. Um, yeah, so that's that's cool. So, second, what's something you changed, what's something you changed your mind about and what made you see it differently? We kind of talked about it a little earlier with the online giving, but let's do something else.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:04:49

Um I see that I see differently. I I see more the through the lens of other generations. Right. That's good. We we we've had, you know, in the past about like the way you dress, your generation dresses and way I dress, and and and I'm I'm comfortable. I I don't want to dress differently and as I have to to suggest I have to be something else and and all of that. But uh to to become comfortable with um dress in worship, even that doesn't uh coincide. You know, my thing was that there's a certain way we should present ourselves before the Lord in worship. Right. Um part of my own generational understanding of what that, but but then I think to be open to um again, it's about one's humanity, you know, and and and the church has to be the place where we don't emphasize some of the stuff that we have before. Now, on on the other side of that coin, I don't want people uh to put me down because I wear a suit.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:06:16

Right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:06:17

Right. Uh they can because people can try to flip that. They do. Yeah. And and they'll say, well, we we don't go to church because you gotta dress a certain way. No, that you you're not going to church because you don't want that's an excuse. You can go because nobody nobody gonna say anything about how you dress, but to to to have a tent large enough um that's inclusive, and and I mean inclusive in a whole whole lot of different ways.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:06:42

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:06:43

You know, are we are we accepting people the way Jesus would accept accept them? Are we putting our own cultural uh baggage on them?

Jesse Mapson III: 1:06:54

And what we remember and what we feel.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:06:57

Yeah, and and and and accepting them as they are, uh, and and taking trying to take them to a level where we believe Christ wants them to be, and where we have become. We're we're always in a process of becoming so that salvation is never I was saved, it's always I'm being saved.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:07:18

Right. That's good.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:07:20

I'm being I'm being saved and and growing. And so um and and I think preachers make them those who do it, including me, maybe over the years a couple of times, um, make those kind of issues important in a we you know uh about the way a person dresses or the way um Oh, I mean, we talk about that though, even with how I how I dressed for church.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:07:46

I mean, I've never really ever felt comfortable wearing suits. Yeah. Didn't never like ever. So even with even wearing hats, um Oh yeah, I was gonna I was gonna vote.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:07:59

That's it's a style. It goes with the outfit. It goes with the outfit. Literally in the Whereas Whereas I grew up, you did not wear a hat, a man did not wear a hat inside a building, right? Let alone inside a church. No, n definitely not in the sanctuary, right? But not even in a restaurant. But but it's it's part of the outfit. So so the kind of transition to um I think accept accepting people where they are.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:08:28

Uh but people learn too, and that's that that was the whole point for me. Is like if a person my age comes into our sanctuary and they see people dressed in suits, primary most of the people are still dressed in suits and things like that, maybe a little bit more lax with no tie and stuff like that, you know, sweater, sweatshirts, things like that. But for the most part, suits and dresses and not even much hats anymore, really. But I want them to feel like they're represented in in that sanctuary. Yeah. Because a lot of my generation is about inclusion. We want to feel like we're uh included in something. So if I if I go somewhere and I don't feel like I'm seen there, then the the easiest thing for me to do is leave and go somewhere else where I where I feel like I connect better. Where you feel people who look like you too. I'm a part of a community. Yeah. That you know, so those are those are the things too. So like for me, it would it became at first like it was a very intentional thing because I just wanted, I wanted, I started seeing young people come in there, and then they just don't they're not connecting to that part. But now we can talk. We can you feel a little bit more like, oh, okay, cool. He he must be cool, and that's just off at first glance, or she must be cool too, because you know, even though they're she's not dressed or he's not dressed like them, they're still here. Yeah. And then I think honestly, that's the most important part. And then from there, if there's some other things that we need to try to fix, you know, if your hat if your church doesn't wear hats, don't tell the kid take the hat off as soon as he walks in the door. That's the quickest way to drive me away. But allow him to wear his hat, or just don't, just don't get him from the door. And then eventually he'll look around and say, Ain't nobody got a hat on.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:10:12

Or eventually when you build relationships, you can have that have a conversation, a little bit non-judgmental conversation about what what that means.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:10:22

For for our for us. For us, yeah. Yeah, for us, because in a lot of churches they do it. Absolutely. So, all right, I'm sorry, we're gonna get out of here. Three I have two more. I'm gonna have two more. If you could go back and give your 25-year-old self one piece of I advise, what would it be?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:10:41

It would be um just study more. Like school or like church? The word Bible, the word of God.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:11:02

But you you study so much though.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:11:05

Like you know what's what's happening now is as as I've been in preaching for 57 years, early on. I I wondered in a few years, would I have anything to preach like I'm somehow gonna learn how to there's so much more that needs to be preached that I haven't even gotten to.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:11:26

I get it, but you you have that. If if you guys could see his study, piles and piles, I mean 57 years worth of sermons piled up on the floor, books all around. If you watch Bible study all around, there's no way you can say, well, no, I mean that's your truth, so that's fine. Um, but to reassure you, I think that you study enough. I mean, every time I'm I come over to the house, you're on a computer writing ministry matters, you're doing a sermon for next week, you're tidying up a sermon for this week. Like, well done. I think you do a great job at preparing. Like that for me, I feel like in a different way, obviously. I'm prepared for the things that I do because I watch how you prepare. And I I wouldn't for even for this podcast, like I prepared myself not necessarily for questions, but how I was gonna approach being on camera that I don't like doing. But like, you did it, I feel comfortable sitting down here with you, but like I see you read over the things before we even sit down, you know? So you're prepared. If you didn't think you were. All right, last thing, and we're out of here. What's the simple thing you wish what's a simple thing you wish more people actually understood about you? Or have you ever thought about it?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:12:47

My my oh desire for excellence in worship to the point where sometimes I think I'm um I don't I don't like playing church. Um I think there's too much busyness, I think there's too much talking, I think there's too much disrespecting the sacredness of this of the sanctuary space. Uh and and I have to catch myself sometimes because um I d I don't want it to to appear to be hard in that in that way. But I'm sometimes appalled at how we seem to treat the church like we would a theater. And uh in in terms of the sanctity of of worship and and really coming, I don't like I think we've turned funerals into a kind of a just a circus. People, you know, even during during the wait, people are just uh they're talking, they're laughing. So somebody's dead here, you know. If that were me, I would actually say something. Y'all y'all respect me, respect this moment. Um so I would say I would say that. I would say that uh walking in and in and out of church. Um it it and and sometimes a lack of discipline that that parents have with their children. And our children, I know children are children. I always say I'd rather them there in worship, acting up than not in in worship, but but at the same time, there's uh uh what what are we teaching our children about the sacredness of this place?

Jesse Mapson III: 1:14:47

See that was that's all I had, but that was that was great.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:14:52

Yeah, I want I want to end just um saying something about your mother. Yeah, let's talk about it. Because um the joy of my life um and when I when we married uh met her at Union and um I I asked the Lord, you know, for a a wife and children. And I got a wife and two sons instantly, right? And then, you know, that's always the Lord uh will I have a biological child, uh, which which was you, and but the way that she has has been the kind of um mother to I was uh I was I was away a whole lot more than I am now. Yeah. Um sometimes maybe I maybe I maybe it was too much. I don't know, but it was a lot. I was away a lot, and she um she was left to to uh to to be the mother and also uh represent me in my absence f r when I when I was away a lot. And just the way she has handled that and the kind of kind of sons she has produced. Uh we together, but she uh I owe so much, we owe so much to her. Uh I used to be offended that people would say you you look like her. Oh not me, because you do look like her, you act like me. Absolutely. Yeah, they say that. But uh just just to to thank thank God for a Christian woman, a a mother, first lady, minister, all of the all of that, what she is. And we didn't even talk about how what that meant when when you know she announced that. Remember when I when I called the three of you, the boys, right? Yeah, and said we need to have a zoom or something.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:17:00

All right, I'm gonna tell a quick story, and then we're out of here. So we were we went to dinner, me, you, Sunia, my wife, and mom. And mom and either you or mom kept on asking me, um, how do you do like a conference call or something like that? And I'm just like, conference call, who does that? And then whatever, and I'm like, okay, this is weird. So we leave dinner, and I'm literally talking to Sunia, and I'm like, what do you think it is? I'm like, this is just like, why do they keep on asking me this? What's going on here? So I'm trying to figure it out. She's not really helping because she's like, I don't know. And then we're just like, whatever, whatever. And then literally, when we got on that phone, what did I tell you?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:17:41

I thought you thought we were we were saying we were we were separating.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:17:48

Man, listen, that whole car ride home. I'm just like, not like I can't go between two houses now. Like, this is just gonna be a lot. Like, I can't do this. Like at 35, I'm just I can't. But no, like when when you guys called and and she said that, it was not a surprise, yeah, at all. Yeah. Um, she's been doing ministry for a long time. As long as I've known her. For a very, very long time.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:18:11

And in other, again, in other ways, like she didn't start, she didn't even start going, you know, being active in church when she married a preacher.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:18:19

Yeah, she was right there.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:18:21

She was teaching Sunday school. She was uh president of the Chancel Ushers. Wow. She was for that, yeah. Which was a new group I started at at Union. Okay, and then she was in the of course in the choir.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:18:34

One of the saw me, she was Did you pick her to be on it? Were y'all dating yet when you pick her to be there? No. Oh, so you just saw something in her.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:18:41

Oh, I didn't I didn't pick officers, kept groups. All right, we got I let the groups pick their own.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:18:48

No, that's great. Nah, but yeah, shout out, mom. We love you. Amazing mother. Uh yeah. I think she's great, man. So our family, our family units.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:18:58

I'm proud of my three sons.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:19:00

And we're proud of you, man. You you've uh you set a great example. So this has been fun. Yep. Um, we want you guys to make sure you stay tuned for season two. Uh, we have a couple more episodes anyway, but season two is gonna be amazing. We're working on some new things, some new adventures, and new ventures, not adventures, but adventures, adventures, too. It has been yeah, it is an adventure at some time, too. So, but we're we're really excited uh about this podcast and the new things that we have coming out. So we want to shout out to you too.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:19:31

We want to thank uh guests. Good to be here. Uh Jesse Mapson the third uh for this amazing conversation. And and what another conversation we're gonna have later on is with PKs.

Jesse Mapson III: 1:19:44

Yeah, that's gonna be a good one too.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. : 1:19:45

That's that's gonna be a good one. Yeah, it's gonna be a good group. That's good. Yeah, it's gonna be a good group. Uh, but but uh we hope that you will can continue to watch these episodes of uh the ministry exchange with Dr. Mapson. Blessings on you um uh as we continue to do the work of ministry. And and uh see you next time.