Ep 16 – Season 1 Rewind: What This Season Taught Us About Ministry

A season’s worth of hard-won wisdom deserves more than a closing credits moment, so we pressed pause and gathered the conversations that shaped us most. This Season One Rewind revisits the clips you returned to, shared, and carried into your ministry contexts—moments about letting go with grace, the realities of clergy life, the tension between cultural relevance and church identity, the courage to answer a call before you feel ready, and the weight of prophetic preaching when support is scarce. This episode is part reflection, part field guide, and focused on what strengthens real churches and real leaders.

We revisit Bishop Walter S. Thomas Sr., who reminds us that loving the church more than the position is the foundation of healthy transition. We pair that with Rev. Dr. DeForest “Buster” Soaries’s challenge to rethink pastoral finance, honor bi-vocational realities, and provide dignified support for the shepherds who serve our congregations. Rev. Dr. Alyn E. Waller reframes gospel music as an on-ramp to discipleship rather than a substitute for Sunday formation, pushing us to imagine evangelism for a generation drawn by sound but searching for substance.

With Rev. Dr. Danielle L. Brown, we sit in the tension of calling before readiness, naming the quiet scripts that have funneled women into support roles—and celebrating the growing, Spirit-led movement of women stepping confidently into senior leadership. Rev. Dr. Kevin R. Johnson brings us into the loneliness and necessity of prophetic conviction, reminding us that standing alone often precedes standing together.

Threaded through it all is Bishop Keith W. Reed’s charge to “gather wheat from every field, and make your own bread”—a reminder to learn widely without losing yourself, lead boldly without imitation, and let the voices that shaped you strengthen your own.

We close with gratitude for every guest who shared their journey and every listener who watched, commented, prayed, and carried these conversations beyond the studio. A Season One digital E-Book is on the way—gathering themes like leadership pressure, legacy and succession, calling, originality, worship and culture, and prophetic responsibility into a resource for pastors and leaders everywhere.

Season Two begins January 8 with new voices and the same commitment to clarity, courage, and ministry that matters. Share this rewind with someone who needs it, subscribe, and help us continue the conversa

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Season One Rewind
• 1:34 Partner Acknowledgment: Palmer Seminary
• 3:20 Why A Reflective Rewind Matters
• 5:35 Bishop Thomas On Transition And Legacy
• 9:20 Letting Go With Grace And Succession
• 14:20 Dr. Sorres On Clergy And Money
• 18:40 Dignity In Compensation And Retirement
• 23:30 Dr. Waller On Music, Culture, Evangelism
• 28:00 Relevance Without Losing The Gospel
• 31:00 Partner Acknowledgment: Terry Funeral Home
• 32:30 Rev. Dr. Brown On Calling And Readiness
• 36:40 Women Leading And Breaking Barriers

Transcript

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ and welcome to this uh final episode of season one of the ministry exchange. Uh it has been a um an awesome journey, uh this leg of the journey which began in the spring, and we're grateful during this season of gratitude. Uh and by the way, uh gratitude and thanksgiving are not seasonal, but during the season of gratitude, we're thankful not only for the gift that God has given to us, uh, the gift of his son Jesus Christ, but the gift of you as well. You have uh been with us through this uh leg of the journey, and for that we're grateful. Today's episode of the Ministry Exchange is supported by our silver partner, Palmer Theological Seminary, whose mission is the whole gospel for the whole world through whole persons. As one of the most diverse seminaries in North America, Palmer equips our leaders through holistic ministry, justice-centered formation, and a global vision of the church. To learn more about their programs and mission, visit PalmerSeminary.edu and follow on social media at Palmer Seminary for more. Thank you. This episode is a little different from previous episodes. We we called this final uh episode of the season uh our season one rewind. And it is a moment for us to pause and to reflect and uh and just to revisit some of the voices uh and some of the conversations that have helped us uh shape this uh this exciting season, first season. Uh these are moments that uh many of you have gravitated toward uh and shared and carried with you into your own leadership context. But before we begin, I want to thank each of you uh who tuned in this season, uh, whether you joined us from the first episode until now or found your way uh along the way, uh, your presence does matter greatly to us. And uh I've been encouraged uh to know that you continue to share these conversations with us. And uh we never know who needs to hear what God is saying through these moments, and I've just been um so overjoyed at uh responses that I've I've heard from you personally about what this means to you. Uh so when we look back over this this uh wonderful season, there have been certain moments that have uh risen to the surface uh because how powerfully they connected with so many of you, and we're going to just review uh some of these moments. First one we will review uh was with Bishop Walter S. Thomas, who uh uh is the retired pastor of the New Psalmist Baptist Church in Baltimore, Maryland, and uh a dear friend of mine uh for over 50 years. And uh if you recall, uh a lot of um our conversation was sharing uh memory moments from the beginning when we we started out in ministry about the same time and uh uh pastored just uh about 70, 80 miles apart, he in Baltimore and me in Philadelphia. And when we think about um our conversation with with Bishop Thomas, uh we think about what it means to transition, what it means to retire, um, and the the amount of wisdom that uh was stored up in him over these many years to pastor in your hometown and pastor one church in your hometown for uh over 50 years. Um I believe is uh um is something to to um be very grateful for and uh and the impact that he has made on the lives of so many, not only in Baltimore, but across the nation. And so here's one of those moments uh when we were able to uh learn from him in terms of what it means to um to lead well, but then to let go with uh with dignity and grace.

SPEAKER_06: 5:20

I love the church more than I love what I do at the church. That's another part of the troubled waters. The troubled waters is what's gonna happen to me. What's gonna happen to me is secondary to what's gonna happen to the church. Right. God called me to take care of his church, to be the under-shepherd of his church. He didn't call me to worry about me. He said he take care of me. Right. And so I had to make new psalmists my prime concern. I'm getting, I was sick, I was, I wanted to leave at 68, but forces came that made it so it couldn't happen. I couldn't leave during COVID. Right. I could have left, but I kept the passengers feeling safe. But after COVID was over, I knew. I knew it was over. Um and I knew that I didn't have the capacity I had before. I couldn't step in the same river twice. New Psalmist had had its golden era under me. The operative word was had. I couldn't go back and recreate that. I was 73 then. I was 40, I was 38 and 40 then.

SPEAKER_03: 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 6:33

I couldn't go back and do that again. I I couldn't call young people to Christ. I contend if you intend to keep pastoring and you turn gray and get a beard, shave them off. But when you decide I'm gonna retire, let them grow. Why? Because young people ain't joining gray hair. Yeah, they're just not doing it. They want to join somebody who's doing life with them.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 7:03

Bishop Thomas said, I love, and I quote, I love the church more than I love what I do at the church. Um a powerful statement in terms of um workers, workers change, workers in the church change, pastors, leaders, members, but but the work goes on. And and the work is the work is bigger than the workers. And so when we think about transition, when we think about um putting in place uh a succession plan, um recognizing that the the work does continue beyond us and should, and and we should want uh the church to be in a in a position for that to happen uh seamlessly, and and so that that even the work that we do uh is is not diminished by how we exit and how a church is left sometimes um to on its own. Uh and so we're we're grateful for for this moment. Our next moment was with uh Reverend Uh DeForest Buster Sorres, who is also retired pastor um of the First Baptist Church of Lincoln Gardens in um Somerset, New Jersey, North Jersey, uh my area. Uh and we we also have been friends for many years since our days in in New Jersey. Uh following uh his pastoral years, he has traveled the country and and the world helping people, uh communities, churches, and pastors look at uh what it means to live with financial integrity, um looking at issues of uh debt and and how debt has imprisoned so many of us in a culture that is uh uh uh materialistic oriented and um uh we we we we we judge people based on on what they have. Uh we value people on bank accounts, and uh how how does the church um uh keep itself from being imprisoned by debt? How do how do we as individuals keep ourselves from being in prison by debt? But also um how do we put in in place a plan in terms of of our churches to provide adequately for uh our pastors? And so when we talked with Dr. Sores, um he was able to pull back the curtain in terms of of how pastors, many pastors are are are forced to live.

SPEAKER_03: 10:47

The TV preachers have done us a disservice because they distort the reality of the fact that the average, the average, the median income for clergy today is thirty-seven thousand dollars. Bus drivers make more than thirty-seven thousand dollars. You can make more than thirty-seven thousand dollars working at a fast food chain. Absolutely. Um the majority of the clergy in this country have a job outside of the church. But the image of preachers with jets and preachers with megachurches and and the like dominates the cultural mindset for clergy. And so it's hard for clergy to talk about finance because they don't want to be lumped into that category. Um it was it was hard for me. That's really where this book and this ministry came from, because what I what I was concerned about was a lot of these TV preachers were getting money from my members. Yeah. They had to be absolutely. Yes. That does have as its goal prosperity, but the methods and the rationale and the results of prosperity are different.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 12:15

I think when we we look at uh um clergy finance, uh, and we we have to we have to help our congregations understand um the need for a pastor to not only pastor with dignity, but also to retire with with dignity and to provide the resources that are necessary for that for that to happen. We're maybe in a period now when when even more pastors uh will be vi bivocational because uh so many of our churches are struggling um uh today. But then does not a pastor deserve not only an adequate salary, but also uh benefits as other people have, uh health benefits, of course, and also retired retirement benefits so that uh a pastor can move on and retire with dignity, and then the church can continue uh to move forward also with the same kind of dignity. Um how do we get to a point where uh uh uh the leadership of our churches as as well as pastors, particularly new pastors, can talk freely uh about uh issues of finance and to understand that uh uh it benefits it benefits everybody and and and to and to be good stewards of of the resources that that God has given to us. I've I've known instances where a church wants to know everything about a prospective pastor, uh financial details, personal details, but then the church is not willing to say anything about itself in terms of its own uh finances, its own and its own budget. And many times pastors are uh locked out of uh of knowing everything that that they need to know about uh about the life of the church. Our next moment was with Reverend Dr. Alan E. Waller, who is the senior pastor of the Enon Tabernacle Baptist Church uh here in Philadelphia. Uh also an accomplished uh musician uh and recording artist. Um and the uh tension sometimes between uh preaching and musician, and and how a person as gifted as he in terms of uh doing both is able to uh of course make ministry, preaching ministry, uh a priority, but at the same time uh using the the gift of music which he has been given uh to enhance that ministry. Um and then how is that how does that work itself in terms of helping uh the music industry, particularly when it comes to gospel music, uh, to continue to be true to uh of uh the church and to the Bible, uh and and and his ability to uh take people who are drawn to gospel music to make that next step in terms of commitment uh to Christ and to the Church of Jesus Christ. And so uh how how is that tension faced uh honestly?

SPEAKER_05: 16:24

There's no bad music, there's just music out of place. Um that song does not belong here. Yeah it's not that it doesn't belong, it belongs somewhere else. Even as I started pastoring in the early 90s, I was determined to pastor the people that came to Christ at Kirk Franklin's concert. And that was intentional. That was I was what I was saying is he's not doing music for the church, he's doing music to bring people to church. But now when those people who listen to that music come to Christ, they're gonna need a church that understands how they got here, but they're still gonna have to come the rest of the way into the culture. Um, and I feel uniquely for our generation, gifted and called to help people make that transition. So I'm not mad at Kirk Franklin then or not necessarily now. Yeah, I just recognize his music is not for Sunday morning. Right. It doesn't make it bad. It just means it's for the Thursday night show and let's just call it what it is. It's that. But somebody is going to be inspired. Now we need a church that's ready to take that person and finish the rest of the journey. Right, right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 17:53

I think what what uh I think an important question in in terms of listening to Dr. Waller is how do we um in an attempt to be relevant uh and contemporary, how do we do that in terms of evangelism? And and and again, what what is the what is evangelism today? What what are uh how do we reimagine evangelism, but then how do we uh uh minister to people who who do have a hunger and thirst for for righteousness, uh maybe maybe not for the institution, but certainly uh for God. And how do we relate to them and and remain relevant? How do we relate to them and maintain the integrity of the church and of the gospel so that it is not diluted uh uh and become uh uh just a fad in order to suit the the culture in which we live. This episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner, Terry Funeral Home, Incorporated. For over 85 years, they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion, and consistency. Under the leadership of Gregory T. Burrell, Terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name, offering guidance and support when it's needed the most. Whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss, Terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity, clarity, and compassion when families need it the most. Find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence. Visit Terry FuneralHome.com. And thank you. Our next moment was with uh Reverend Dr. Danielle L. Brown. And she is the senior pastor of the Shallow Baptist Church in Plainfield, New Jersey, a church that I know well and have known uh over the years. Two of her predecessors were very dear friends of mine. And uh she has uh taken Shallow uh to to great heights in terms of uh of uh just uh uh exciting ministry there at the Shallow Baptist Church. Um and Reverend Brown came into ministry at a time when she really really questioned uh uh why God was was calling her uh and her sense of of not being prepared uh and yet sensing the need to be obedient and surrounded by uh other faith leaders who supported her and uh um helped to help to guide her in that process. Um what does it look like? I I think the question for her, what is it what does it look like to say yes to God when you don't feel you're ready to say yes?

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

There was a point where I I realized, like, no, you know, okay, God is calling me to be a senior pastor. Uh it was difficult to articulate that. Um I think there's this thing that happens for women. Uh, when men are called to ministry and they respond to the call, the immediate thing is, all right, you're gonna have your own. When women are called to ministry, we're often socialized and even prepared to be a solid support role person. Um, among my sisters in ministry, and you know, we have these conversations, more of us are being called to senior pastorates. It seems that one of the common threads is that we all felt that we had to be a number two, that there wasn't this like I'm responding to my call, and then immediately I'm gonna go and search a senior pastorate. We're we're searching executive pastorals or Christian education or youth pastorals, um, and then sometimes feel that it's betrayal almost, right, to pursue something outside of that. Um betrayal to the place where we're planted. And so there was a while, um, it's it took a minute for me to be able to articulate it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 22:43

What are the barriers to women in ministry that that may still exist? And uh from Dr. Brown, we we heard uh uh testimony of one who um came along at a time when it was thought that if a woman was called to ministry, that it would be in a secondary role, that wouldn't be senior pastor. But more and more uh we're seeing women um ascend some of the fine and great pulpits in our in our nation. And what are the implications in terms of um that kind of a model uh being passed down so that that younger women uh who are called into ministry uh won't feel that they have to settle for uh being a youth pastor or being an associate minister or even an executive pastor, but uh that that God is calling uh women to uh to be senior pastors in our churches and and and how transforming is that in terms of being the church that uh that God would want it to be. Our next moment was with Reverend Dr. Kevin Johnson, who is the senior pastor of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem. Uh certainly one of the uh not only a great church, but one of the historic uh African-American churches of our nation, and one that has been pastored uh by the likes of Adam Clayton Powell Jr. and uh the Reverend Dr. Samuel DeWitt Proctor, and uh even more recently until his death by the Reverend Calvin O. Butts. Uh Dr. Johnson's journey uh has taken him um from um Texas to Atlanta to Cleveland to New York and Philadelphia back to New York. Uh and and his his ministry uh has focused on prophetic speech uh to the point where uh uh we all understand that sometimes prophetic speech will get us in trouble, and uh and yet we're called upon uh to do that. We talked about uh uh our experience at Morehouse College under the in my influence of Dr. Benjamin Mays, uh, and uh and and that that influence that continued at Morehouse that uh uh taught us that we were not there just for an education, but to make uh a difference as leaders in the lives of of our people. Um what does that look like in terms of the the burden and the cost of that? Uh in terms of having that kind of courage to speak out even when it's not popular, and and being driven, uh being driven to be prophetic, being driven to make a difference, being driven to be the leader that God has called us to be.

SPEAKER_01: 26:09

Many young preachers they don't want to take the tough stances. Yeah, uh, they don't want to stand alone. And I'm used to standing alone. I'm used to not having support. Um, but I believe that if you're gonna be committed to this thing called prophetic preaching, that you have to be willing to take a stand. And Reverend Bud said something to me at some point in my ministerial journey. He said, Kevin, one of the things I admire about you, he said, is that if you believe in something, he said, you're willing to stand for it and even die for it. And he told this story about Dr. Mays talking about uh Dr. King and how there were a group of ministers who had gotten together trying to tell Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. not uh to continue with his boycotts. And even his father was against him, right? And as the story goes, that Dr. Mays stood up and spoke for him. And because he said, uh, if Martin believes in this, I'm gonna stand with him. And that's Reverend Butts told me why he stood with me as related to the Morehouse situation, is because he said it reminded me of Dr. Mays standing with Dr. King.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 27:24

Yeah, that and that that's where it comes from. Yes. Comes from Benjamin Mays and and that not being afraid to stand up for what you for what you what you believe in. I think what we what we see in that in that conversation too, uh, and and we look back on we we have to look back on history that's of obviously already already written, and uh, and sometimes we can make assumptions assumptions of what it was like in in the past and romanticize that history. We have to understand uh that uh even Dr. King was not necessarily well liked uh or well understood or well accepted uh uh among a lot of people within the black community, not just in terms of of the white community. Uh there were many, there were black preachers and black leaders in cities that didn't want him coming in uh dis disrupting the status quo. They had developed relationships with the white community, and white community looked at them as leaders, and Dr. King's coming in is coming into town disrupting that. And so when we when we talk about uh prophetic loneliness, that that being preaching prophetically uh is cannot be romanticized, uh, and and neither can we think that preaching prophetically means that they're not consequences that we must face. We had a wonderful conversation with uh the next uh guest who was Bishop Keith W. Reed, who's pastor here in Philadelphia of the Sharon Baptist Church, and has done a wonderful, impactful job in terms of leading that that congregation. Um and our conversation uh was uh among other things, about listening to other voices and the voices that have shaped us as as ministers, um voices from the past, uh many of whom maybe gone to be with the Lord, but when when we preach, those voices stand with us, when we lead, those voices are with us. And uh he he talked about um uh being open to listening to some of the seasoned elders uh in in our midst, uh having conversations with them, trying to learn and and and and glean wisdom from them. And so uh let's let's listen.

SPEAKER_04: 30:29

See the clockwalk in my church, man. In the basement of my church. And twenty-five, twenty-six of us was down there, and we were just asking them questions. Man, he was given wisdom diamonds, and it's one thing that the one question we asked him that that shut down the whole session that we had with him. And uh, I don't know who it was that asked him. How do you keep coming up with different sermons and you do these revivals? La la la la time you do with me if it's fresh, new, um He said there's one statement, he said Gather wheat from every man's field or make your own brain. Man that has stuck with me since 1985, 86, whatever that year, somewhere around there when he came to share and then we were in the basement, yeah, a little apart. So I say gather weep, gather wheat from every man's field, but make your own bread. That's what I think ministry is about. Amen.

unknown: 31:53

Yeah, amen.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr.: 31:54

I think one of the challenges uh after listening to to Bishop Reed that he raises is how do we listen to these voices um which shape us with without without being carbon copies of these voices and these persons. How do we um how do we develop our own pulpit voice and pulpit presence so that that we're not just carbon copies or or trying to try to mimic uh uh someone else because of of of their popularity. Um and and to to be sure that we we surround ourselves with with elders of uh Paul and Timothy, uh Ruth Naomi, uh the that and what we glean from each other because I think it's it is always a two-way street, and I think I think uh older seasoned pastors are enriched by conversation with younger pastors um who can can speak to the needs of current generations uh and and the needs of of the future and the younger pastors listening to the voices uh of seasoned elders who keep them anchored in in this great tradition, which is the tradition of the black church. I want to take a moment to thank all of our guests who appeared on on the podcast, um, others who appeared. I want to thank Reverend Lester Taylor, another longtime friend, North Jersey Connection, um uh a South Jersey transplant to North Jersey, who pastors the uh Community Baptist Church in Inglewood, New Jersey. Uh Reverend William Curtis, uh another long time, longtime friend who uh who I know very well, and uh Bishop Tim Clark from uh Columbus, Ohio, dear friend and uh uh a friend of our friend, the late Reverend Charles Booth, Reverend Cynthia Hale. Uh thank you, uh Dr. Hale, for stopping by as well. And uh want to thank my son Jesse Mapson III for joining me in an episode of uh of Father and and Son. I want to thank our audience for watching and sharing and commenting and for praying uh for us here at the Ministry Exchange. Uh this is a platform that is built for you in terms of ministry and being able to um be enriched by conversation with so many of um uh our leading voices today. Um, and we thank you for helping to carry these conversations beyond the studio because we do want the conversations to be held um um out where you minister and where you pastor and where you serve. And we encourage you to continue sharing season one episodes. And I want to announce that a season one digital ebook is in development stages, and um it will gather the core themes of the season, including leadership pressure, uh calling before readiness, courage and conviction, originality and voice, succession and legacy, worship, culture, and prophetic responsibility. This will be a reflection uh and leadership tool, uh not just a recap. There are more details that are on the way. Season two. Are we excited about season two, which will begin on January the 8th? Uh there are new voices which are coming, new conversations, uh, but the same commitment to truth and and transparency. And so we ask that you would please stay connected to all of our social platforms, continue the conversations, continue to love the Lord and to do the Lord's work. And we close with gratitude uh and hope for the future and a forward-looking vision. This could not have been possible without uh the partnership with um my son Jesse Mapson III, who is our executive producer, and uh Reverend Dr. Marsha Brown Woodard, who is our research and editorial producer. And also uh without Black Clover Studios, we're grateful for the opportunity to uh record uh from the studios. God bless you.