Ep 23 - The Preacher Who Never Wanted to Pastor | Rev. Dr. Marcus D. Cosby

Some preachers are shaped by a moment. Others are shaped by a tradition. Rev. Dr. Marcus D. Cosby joins Dr. Mapson for a rich conversation about preaching, patience, pastoral leadership, and the voices that form us long before we ever step into the pulpit.

As the Senior Pastor of Wheeler Avenue Baptist Church in Houston, Texas, and only the second pastor in the church’s historic life, Dr. Cosby reflects on what it means to carry a legacy he did not start, while still leading with vision, humility, and faithfulness.

From growing up in Chicago at Emmanuel Baptist Church under the ministry of Pastor L. K. Curry, to being shaped by the Black preaching tradition, HBCU legacy, hymns, and the elders of the Church, Dr. Cosby reminds us that no preacher stands alone.

This conversation also explores:

• The voices and mentors that shaped Dr. Cosby’s preaching
• Why the Black Church must preserve the names of its preaching giants
• The power of patience when God’s timing does not match your timeline
• Leading an intergenerational congregation at Wheeler Avenue
• Why hymns still matter and how they teach theology
• Building for ministry without falling into “edifice complex”
• Sermon preparation, context, and preaching in the age of the internet
• Hope for the future of Black preaching and the next generation of church leaders

If you care about preaching, pastoral leadership, the Black Church tradition, intergenerational ministry, and what it means to trust God’s timing, this episode is for you.

🎙️ Subscribe to The Ministry Exchange and join the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 0:00

Welcome to this uh second season of the Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson. We are having um uh conversations to help equip pastors and ministers uh and church leaders through dialogue and conversation with some of the leading voices in in the black church today, uh voices that influence uh who we are as a people of God. And today is no exception, and we're delighted today to welcome to the Ministry Exchange Reverend Dr. Marcus D. Cosby. And before we have a conversation, um, you've heard all of this about you, but uh people need to know uh something about you in terms of of your of your ministry. He is the senior pastor of Wheeler Avenue Baptist Church in Houston, Texas, uh, but a native of Chicago, Illinois. He's a graduate of Fiske University, Morehouse School of Religion at ITC, and Northern Baptist Theological Seminary. Dr. Cosby has served as associate pastor of Wheeler Avenue beginning in 1998 and became senior pastor in 2024, exceeding the founding pastor, Reverend Dr. William A. Lawson. Only two pastors, only the second pastor of Wheeler Avenue. Uh he is intentional about uh having uh an intergenerational congregation. Uh he's the founder and CEO of Preaching with Power and Authority Ministers. Uh he's been inducted into the Martin Luther King Board of Preachers at Morehouse College and is a trustee of Fisk University. He's the husband of Mrs. Audrey Marie Cosby, the father of five, grandfather, a preacher, teacher, pastor, committed to empowering people through the transformative truth of God's word. Welcome uh to uh ministry exchange. Thank you. We're delighted to have you. Mr. My delight, delighted to have you. Let's uh talk about your beginnings um and some of the

Chicago Roots And A Pastor Mentor

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 2:28

some of the voices that shaped your ministry through the years. Uh I always say that when we stand to preach there are voices that stand with us that have uh informed and shaped and influenced us in ministry. Uh can can we just talk about and and I'm assuming that uh you you were you were born in Chicago and how how long did you live in Chicago?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Until I went away to college. I was there for the entirety of my formative years, and it was at Emmanuel Baptist Church where I got to know the Lord Jesus and sat under uh the tutelage and ministry of the founding pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church, uh Pastor L. K. Curry, my father in the ministry, uh, the man from whom I heard the first sermon I ever heard. Really, and the man from whom I heard most sermons in my life.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 3:22

Today's episode of the Ministry Exchange is supported by our silver partner, Palmer Theological Seminary, whose mission is the whole gospel for the whole world through whole persons. As one of the most diverse seminaries in North America, Palmer equips leaders through holistic ministry, justice-centered formation, and a global vision of the church. To learn more about their programs and mission, visit PalmerSeminary.edu and follow on social media at Palmer Seminary for more. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Um he was not just uh the pastor of our church, but he took a real significant interest in the development, especially of the young men of our church. And um I am the beneficiary of his significant teaching and discipline, and uh I am the better because of it. So he is he is my mentor, my model for ministry. Well, was my first model for ministry, and um the one from whom I really learned what it meant to be a Christian preacher as I have known it uh over the years.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 4:43

Talk about that uh that bishop connection, because Bishop Bishop, for many of you who may not know, was one of the premier uh HBCU certainly um uh really rivaled uh Mohaus in terms of the the preachers it that it has produced, uh influential preachers, uh and even to the fact that some of the uh bishop grads uh maybe went to ITC, uh, you know, I think about uh Sandy Ray, right? The Texan, and uh I had a list of them. Uh uh but just talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Sure. Well, Pastor Curry's brother, Dr. M. K. Curry, was the president of Bishop College for quite some time. And uh that influence um from Bishop was significant at our church uh and in the life of many people who came through our church. Two of Pastor's sons attended bishop, uh, the third went to Morehouse, uh, but two of Pastor Curry's sons went to bishop. I would have loved to have gone to bishop, uh, but I was a little too late. Uh and uh bishop was closing when uh when I was even considering colleges or before I considered college. So, but uh the bishop influence has always been strong, and we've always heard Bishop uh Dr. M. K. Curry would always come to we uh to Emmanuel and he would preach for us uh throughout the years. And so that tradition and that Bishop Blue that they so proudly speak of uh has turned out so many great preachers who stand in pulpits now, many of whom are retiring now in in this season, but there's so many who are friends of mine uh who fondly remember Bishop Cotton. As a matter of fact, my preaching professor in in seminary was a Bishop Grad, Dr. Carolyn Knight, and uh she didn't grad. Uh they're members of our church who are bishop grads, and they and they taught I talked to one um bishop grad uh Dr. Freddie Haynes before I came uh to be with you tonight, and he uh he still finally speaks of of his beloved alma mater.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 7:02

Yeah, and of course, uh William J. Shaw.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. Yes, sir. And thank you for what you shared at his funeral. It was amazing to hear your reflections during that time. Yes, thank you. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 7:16

Yes, sir. Yeah, just just so many of those voices that uh unfortunately are not known today. And the younger pastors need to know, need to know. I mean, they know the names of the uh and and I and I understand that the names of uh preachers that part of their own upbringing. Sure. But uh those those preachers who came before them and and us uh they need they need to be known. You you hardly hear the name of Garner of a Gardener Taylor.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Correct. Correct.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 7:53

Sandy Ray. Sandy Ray was a Texan.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yes, sir. Absolutely, and and a mentor to my to my pastor. He was mentor to Pastor Curry. Um I heard the name Sandy Ray throughout my developmental years uh because of the rich tradition that uh Pastor Ray brought to Pastor Curry and the Curry family. They were all very much beloved one with another. Um and I heard you going back to that funeral as you l cataloged or chronicled for us all those great preachers whose names we need to know, and they cannot be lost with the passage of time.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 8:27

Yeah, yeah. And and names that uh for me, I got to hear them all in person. Not well, yeah. Pretty much all of them in person. Nice, nice. Yes, sir. Um great preachers. And there will come a generation that wouldn't cannot say that. Correct. And uh yeah

Bishop College And Preachers We Forget

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 8:51

I wanted to to talk about Bishop in terms of um the the Institute, too. You know that. LK Williams Institute. Yes, sir. L. K. Williams, if a uh former president of National Baptist Convention uh prior to Jemison, Father Jemison. Yes, sir. So he would have been uh when my dad was a pastor, so he was coming along as a young pastor when L.K. Williams was the president.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Nice, nice. Oh wow, that's great. Oh, you stand in the long tradition of great preachers. Yeah. And uh that history, I I I'm I'm challenged by the reality that um we don't have the access to those names and to that preaching tradition that we probably should have. And we probably need to do more to preserve that rich legacy of preaching. Yeah. Uh that that has bequeathed to us um the the kind of uh churches that were strong and able to continue the passage of faith from generation to generation. Yeah. Yes, sir. Named J. Jackson. Oh my goodness, yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:07

Well, you know, he left monumental. He passed the way I am. Oh, no, I didn't know that. 1931, 33 to 1941. Oh, wow. And left there to go to Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Chicago, absolutely. Absolutely. My pastor and Doc Jackson would talk almost every Sunday night, he told me.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

And they would just talk about how their Sunday went. Yeah. The camaraderie of preachers.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Um back in the day.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:32

Talk about sermons and what did what you gonna preach, Doc?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

What did you preach? What did you preach? Yeah. How'd it go today? Anybody gets a good thing?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:41

How how rich the the conversation was because you you uh were enriched by that that kind of conversation with other preachers. Surely with that. Yeah. Yes, sir. Yeah. Yes, sir. And Chicago being the uh really the the home of gospel music. Mm-hmm. Yes, sir. Yeah. And imagining Pilgrim. Absolutely. You have uh what, Mahalia Jackson, Heliya Jackson, Thomas Dorsey, yes, sir. Yes out of Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Oh man. Great tradition of both message and music. And you you could when I was growing up, you know, church was the thing, at least in from my perspective. So much so that you could go to church from the earliest of the morning all the way to the latest of night. Absolutely. Uh nine o'clock church at at uh fellowship with with with Pastor Clay Evans. The the broadcast started at nine o'clock p.m. And the church was packed with people. At night. Yeah, at night. And preachers from all across the country who may have been in town would come, preachers from all across the city would make their way, and then all the singing that happened at fellowship. So the best of that that music and message tradition uh was captured in a way uh at fellowship for me and in my generation and those who came um before me in in strong ways uh by Pastor Evans and that and that that group of brothers and sisters who used to come through there all the time. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:17

Well, when you mentioned him, so many names come to my you know the name Charles Walker.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yes, sir. Oh, absolutely. Charles Walker's mother was um the the women's president, mission president of our district association when I was a child. So her name was Mercedes P. Walker, and what a wonderful mother of the church she was, and a blessing to my life uh in incalculable ways. I can't even begin to tell you. And then when Pastor Walker and I met, and we uh he came to Wheeler Avenue, he preached for us. He was an amazing preacher. Yes, he was an amazing preacher. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:52

He was. One of the preachers that I talked to before accepting monumental was Charles Walker. He was in and uh he had been preaching for my dad for years, so I called him, you know, said I was uh thinking about uh accepting monumental. What do you think about?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

And he gave you the thumbs up readily, yes sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:18

In my installation.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Oh wow, yeah. Great preacher, great preacher.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Mm-hmm.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:24

Well, when you when you uh in terms of just other voices, uh who who are some of the other voices you would name if you so for me, um of course Pastor Pastor Curry is is the is my titan.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

He's the my he's my guy. Um that Garnesy Taylor, you mentioned his name, uh, was always uh the one I looked to uh for erudition and for um justice issues in the world and and a broad perspective on both history and the contemporary society. Um I was uh uh for for a season in my preaching, I tried to be a clone of Dr. Emmanuel Scott. Uh yes, sir. Uh for a season, I did. I I just was enamored by his energy and his passion. Yeah. And uh still to this day I carry some of that with me. Um uh uh there are um the you know, Dr. Sam Proctor, of course, uh and and the work that he did. And uh the last sermon I heard him preach has stuck with me um throughout the years. Um Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who who are you? And he he made it so intriguing. You're sitting on the edges of your of our seats just listening uh to the way that he that he brought all of the history of the biblical text uh together with his scholarship and with the uh contemporary reality. And it's just a blessing to me. So he he, along with so many others, have have contributed to my appreciation and I dare say passion for preaching. And I have a a strong passion for preaching. I am that comes out. Yeah, I uh I just love it. I love to hear it, I love to watch it, I love good preaching, I love uh not so good preaching, I just like to listen to it and and and be and be informed by it, uh both spiritually and and in a way, in a scholastic way as well.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:36

Yeah. So Sam Proctor's style different from a uh uh Caesar Clark's.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Oh mercy, yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:45

But all a part of this tradition. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That is so rich.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

And we benefit from it all. From it all. Benefit from it all. Yeah, yeah. Pastor Clark, Dr. Clark, uh preached the first revival at Wheeler Avenue Baptist Church. The very first one. Wheeler Avenue had always a tradition of, you know, uh, as Pastor Lawson, my predecessor said, it, uh, a silk stocking church. So they were not very emotional, not very responsive. And um Dr. Clark, in the preaching tradition that out of which he came, uh, was concerned by midweek that he wasn't coming through because Wheeler was not responding uh the way he had expected them to respond. And uh Pastor Lawson told him, no, no, if you check their notebooks, they got pages of notes over everything you've read and everything you've said. And uh they've been blessed by the preaching. They're just a different response crowd in terms of responsing, responding. And uh so yeah, those so that that kind of tradition, that Texas tradition, um, in its variations, uh speak speak much about uh how the black preaching tradition continues to inspire generations in multiple ways. Yeah. A.L. Patterson. Oh my goodness, yes, sir. He we're in third ward. He was in fifth ward of Houston, Texas. And um what a what a gym he was. What a gym.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 17:11

Hampton, sir. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yes, sir. He was a gym. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 17:17

Wheeler Avenue, you're um an associate minister there, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Or so I I went there in 1988 to be the associate pastor, which was in many terms the assistant pastor of the church. Uh Pastor Lawson was considering retirement and looking forward to it uh in '98. And he asked me to come. He um Where were you at the time? In in Atlanta. I was at Morehouse School of Religion, and I was working at Morehouse College, so I was doing both of those. And uh and he um reached out to a friend of his, who was a mutual friend. I was a guy I was preaching for uh each year, uh, Pastor K. T. Whalem out of Memphis.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah. And Wendell Whalem's brother. Yeah, Wendell Whalem's brother. You know that Morehouse connection. And um and he asked Pastor Whalem if he knew anyone who could come and assist him and eventually succeed him. And he, Pastor Lawson said the first name out of his mouth was Marcus Cosby. And neither of us knew the other. Uh, but he invited me to come preach, and we connected, and the rest is history if you want to say it that way. Yeah. But yeah, that's how I got to Houston. I didn't didn't know anything about Wheeler Avenue Baptist Church, and he didn't know anything about Marcus Cosby. Um, but uh the Lord connected us through KT Whalem, and uh that's how I've been there for these 28 years now.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:43

28.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yes, sir. 1990, almost 28. What connections? Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:48

Yes, sir.

Intergenerational Worship Done On Purpose

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:50

And and in terms of being at Wheeler, um, what are some of the things that that have taken place since you've been there that you're most proud of? Oh wow in terms of ministries or in terms of just um you mentioned intergenerational um ministry.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Uh that's probably what I'm most excited about. That we can take the Ministry of Wheeler Avenue and make it um make it uh palatable to all generations. Uh and we work on that. It it's an intentional uh working of ours that we want every generation to be present. I still firmly believe in Psalm 90 at verse 1. Lord, you've been our dwelling place in all generations. So I I'm not satisfied unless the senior of seniors is there and the babies are in the children's church or in the nursery, and everybody in the middle is there as well. Um, because I think, you know, to to use um the village model, the African village model, that all of us benefit from the others of us, uh, and that every generation can learn from each. And I think we're trying to do that in a way that allows all of us to grow together. Yeah. So I think that's what I'm most proud of. We, you know, we just built a building and that was that was nice, and it's paid for, praise the Lord. We paid it off in four and a half years. So we're excited about that. But beyond that, I I'm just excited that um that we all get together. And we have what I would call the best of both worlds in terms of worship, uh, the old school and the new school blending together and a merging of those every Sunday. And I think the younger need to know of the historical virtues of the older church, old church, and the older need to know that there's some contemporaneality, contemporaneous stuff that can come to us to help us to stay alive and active and vibrant. And uh so that's what we try to do with Wheel Avenue.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 21:02

Yeah, d do you it is it a separation of those generations in worship, or you have the the every worship service is a blending of those generations? Every worship service is a blending. You know, there was a time when we were, when I say we, I mean some in the church were having a contemporary service just for young people and then uh we call it traditional service. But you're not we do it all. You're not you you're missing the richness of that intersection.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, we try to do it all in one service. Yeah. And sometimes it makes makes for a long service, but uh, we try to do it all in one service. You're in text. Yes, sir. You can go longer. We can go a little longer. But the hymns of the church are part of every worship service. Um that's because of my upbringing. Pastor Curry taught us to uh appreciate the hymns of the church. And so um we sing those every time we gather. The uh Um and the contemporary praise and worship songs are sung. Um, but we can't get there until we sing the hymn. And so and every every stanza of every hymn. You're right. Yeah. Pastor Curry taught us. If the writer didn't want you to sing the song, the writer wouldn't have written the song.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 22:17

We could sing a gospel song Forever. Forever. Never never ending. And then we want to sing the first and last stanzas of the case. Can't do it. Can't do it. Can't do it. I'm with you, Doc. We sing every stanza.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Because it's a story. It's it's uh theology is being taught through the hymns of the church. Thank you. And uh and we have to maintain um our understanding of that uh and our appreciation for it. We won't let people think that that's boring part of worship. No, that's not no, it's lively active and wonderful. I'm learning all of this information that I need to know about this relate religion or this relationship that I have.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 23:00

I I know all of these old hymns and I'm saying to myself, man, how did you it's in you?

unknown 23:07

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 23:07

Because you grew up and and the stanzas are meaning.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yes, sir. I I I jokingly, in many of my messages, I jokingly talk about Pastor Curry and and those hymns. Um, we sang four hymns in every worship service when I was growing up. Four. And every stanza, all four of those hymns, the introit hymn, the congregational hymn, the sermon hymn, and the invitational hymn. Uh so whereas we would put praise and worship and some gospel in those spaces in the worship service today, now those were filled with learning all of those words. And there weren't screens back then. So you they either have a hymnal or it was printed in the bulletin, or you memorized it because we sang it enough and it and now it just comes up out of me. And um I I used to joke with Pastor Curry that um, Pastor, you you're citing hymns from 1905. Nobody knows that. He said, but it's good for you. You need to learn it. And I find myself citing old hymns now in my messages. Yeah. And uh whether people know the words or not.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 24:12

I was gonna say, it was a time when you, you know, a preacher would hit the the words to amazing grace at the end of the sermon. It was over. Yes, sir. And now it's like what is that?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. You have to hope that you have some hymn knowers and some knowledge of the hymns in this in the congregation.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 24:35

But that was a familiar close for preaching, like preaching. Points and a hymn. Yes, sir. Stances over here. Points and a hymn. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Wow. Yes. In terms of the the intergenerational piece, uh we all struggle with the younger generations and and uh and we know the statistics about you know that they've fallen away from institutions and but it's it seems to me that there is an opportunity to um if not if they haven't gone to bring them back or at least uh uh to have that kind of model you're talking about. What how do you do it? Because because it's it's a struggle for for all of us to you know that that age group of you know, we got we got we got little kids in our church, you know, and they come up, sure, but then there's a gap there. Um and it's it's just it's it's disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yes, yes. So what we've attempted to do, and for and to varying degrees at varying times, it works and works better in in certain in certain seasons. Um I've attempted to surround myself with every generational, uh with every generation and on our staff. So what happened, what helped us was when we realized that this was where the Lord was leading us to make sure we had this intergenerationality among us, um, I intentionally started hiring people to head up each demographic. Now, I recognize every church can't do that. Uh some at but there were times where some of those folk were volunteers. Uh my wife for a season was a volunteer for the middle schoolers and she took care of them. But but I hired a seniors minister as soon as soon as uh I became pastor because I didn't want to to I didn't want them to feel as if that they were not cared for with this new young bud uh showing up uh because of course young people were attracted to the new young preacher. Sure. So young people came. So young adults were showing up. And um because I had been there for six and a half years before I became pastor, got there in '98, became pastor in 04. Because I had been there for those six and a half years. I had access to some people. I used to, we had a night service. Pastor Lawson assigned me a night service when I got there. And so I'm preaching every Sunday night. And young people would come. And and and I looking in hindsight, Pastor Lawson knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted to make sure that the church was filled with those generations. Um and what he may not have had um the gifts to do at that season of his life, he brought me in to supplement or to augment. And um and so the other thing about our church is we are sandwiched literally between two universities. So our placement is critical. Uh there's the University of Houston on one side of us, you know, two blocks away, and then two blocks away on the other side is Texas Southern University. So we have college students that come to our church all the time, sometimes just to tell their mothers that they went to churches because it's close so they can get to us easily. Um, but uh we try to keep them there once they get there, right? So they got the seniors minister, so the seniors are happy. We always had children's ministry, we always had youth ministry, so that they were they were happy. What we didn't have was a young adult minister or a middle-aged minister. And so over the years we've added those two components. So young adults, uh, they have their own separate service once a month, and they they have their own, you know, opportunities for fellowship and the like. And we just began about two years ago a middle-aged ministry. They call it Prime of Life. And uh so we just put someone in charge of that. So I think because of that, when people know that they have a space where they can go, where they'll see more people just like them. And then on Sunday, everybody comes and we see everybody, uh, because all of these groups meet with regularity throughout the month, and uh I think that helps us to secure that intergenerational um design

Doubt, Doors Closing, And Patience

SPEAKER_00 29:10

for our church or desire for our church.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 29:12

Wow, that's yeah. Yes, sir. Well, that's that is definitely helpful. Yes, sir. Um definitely helpful. Did you ever have any uh doubt during the six years that uh you know you know which questions to ask, don't you? Yes, it happens, yes that you know a pastor changes his mind or I'm not ready to go yet. I mean, I know instances when when that has happened. Yes, sir. Um so it is a kind of a a trust and faith that um maybe a certain level of confidence that it is that is is gonna happen. And maybe if it doesn't, that's okay too. I mean, it's like you.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Our original conversation was about five years, I'll be ready to retire. I mentioned to you three minutes ago that I was an associate pastor for six and a half years. So the answer to your question is yes. And I just told the church that uh a year ago. No one really knew that, my family, of course, but no one really knew that I had the the inkling to maybe go and do something else. As a matter of fact, I sent my information in to a church that was that was um seeking a pastor, and that was in 2003 or four. I haven't heard from them yet. I'm still waiting to hear from them. I don't know if they got the packet or not. I'm still waiting to hear from them. But that was God's way of closing that door and letting me know. Sit still, I got you, I know what I'm doing.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 31:00

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SPEAKER_00 32:05

And I'm so glad that they never responded. And the funnier part, the reason why I told the story that, or the story told the church that story, was right before I told them the story, I'd gotten an invitation to come preach revival at that church. Yes, sir. So last October, I went there for the very first time and I asked the pastor, how long you've been here? And he said the exact number of years it had been since the time I sent that letter to them. Wow. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 32:41

Yes, sir. What do you recomm recommend to younger uh ministers, pastors who who may be in a similar situation and um um you know, trying to kind of trying to decide, you know, should I stay or should I seek? Yes. And uh I I've I'm sure the Lord speaks in those instances, but uh you know, to what extent is we're always trying to discern if if I'm speaking or the Lord is speaking, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 33:18

And I always sure. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Absolutely. It's it's almost it's almost sounds trite uh to speak about uh the virtue of patience. It almost sounds trite because uh folk almost expect you to say be patient. But that's my word to some preacher who is in a similar is in a similar situation or will at some point find him or herself in a similar situation. Um that that the timing of God is so significant for our futures that we have to rest in our confidence that God has our times in his hand. And that's difficult. That is very difficult, especially when you see your friends or colleagues or seminary classmates going here and doing this, and and now they're the pastor, and their installation was so wonderful, and you're looking for yours, and you're going back to your staff position. It can be very difficult. Uh, or going back to a position of itinerancy. You don't even have a staff position, you just want somebody to invite you for youth day. Uh that's difficult. And I understand it to be difficult. I've lived it, I know it's difficult. Um when I was associated. Especially if they're mocking you. Surely. Surely. Look what I got. Yes, sir. You have nothing to do with it. Yes, sir. I lived through it. Uh those six and a half years, most of my friends were senior pastors. So six and a half years when I was the associate pastor, most of my ministry friends were pastors. All of my seminary colleagues who wanted to pastor was were pastoring. Now, to be sure, I never wanted to pastor. Oh, really? I never wanted to pastor. I wanted to be an itinerate preacher. I wanted to be a professor somewhere. I never wanted to pastor. Um, and uh I told the Lord, if you just let me work for somebody, uh, you know, and let me preach across the country, I'll be a happy man. I just I'll serve you until the day I die. And the Lord said, okay, I'll let you have that, and then you go do this. Uh so I get to preach all over the place, and I was on the staff for a while where I had the chance to preach regularly. I never thought, and I'll tell you why, I never thought I would have the capacity to preach to the same people every week. My own insecurity gave me diminished capacity mentally. I thought I would not be able to come up with a fresh word for the same people every Sunday. So I told the Lord, yeah, you know, I said, Let me give me three good sermons and take them everywhere. Absolutely. And um, no, so of course that didn't. And you know, social media has hurt us with it. Oh, sir. Oh, the internet is not my friend. The internet is not my friend when it comes to that. Yeah. People say, I heard you preach that, this, that, and the other place. Oh, I like it. When you get to this part right here, I was like, oh, goodness. Yes. So yeah, that it the internet is not my friend. And I prepare for the most part, for the most part. This is not 100%, but I prepare sermons for Wheeler Avenue on Sundays, and then I preach them in other places. I don't usually prepare for the road, as some may write sermons for revivals. That's not what I do.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 36:49

Um, sermon that you would preach it on Sunday morning is also fit for some of them.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Some of them, yes. Some of them. Some

Writing Every Word Without Reading It

SPEAKER_00 37:00

are wheeler specific. Yeah. And then others, okay, this just may be a blessing to people uh in revival.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 37:09

Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 37:11

Yeah. You you use no manuscript. For better or for worse. I hate you. How does he do this? Oh, mercy. At some point in preparation, have you written it out and just don't use it? I write every single word. Really?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I write every single word everywhere. Uh, I used to write it long hand, just in about a about a year ago, did I start using the devices? I used to write every sermon long hand on yellow legal pads. I've I've I've I've destroyed many a tree on yellow legal pads, writing sermons on yellow yellow legal pads. But I write every word because it helps me with retention.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 38:04

Well, thank you. Because I I get grief because uh I still use paper.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yes, sir. Yes, I applaud it, I celebrate it. Yes, sir. I listen to it. I'm not trusting me. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, my pastor, Pat Curry, did not like the fact that I did not use a manuscript.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 38:25

He was a great preacher. Phenomenal preacher. I heard him in the minister's division convention. Yes, sir. Uh Shaw loved him, too. Dr. Shaw. Yes, sir. Loved him. Yes, sir. And and regretted he couldn't go to the funeral. Sure. He was just couldn't physically go.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah, I understand. Yeah. That was were you able? There were two eulogies, and I was the first. Oh, wow. Yes, sir. Mine was the first. Yes, sir. Uh Dr. Freddie Clark and I eulogized my pastor.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 38:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Um, yeah, but he he he used to to chide me. He said, son, I'd rather read than remember any day. That was his famous line to me. I'd rather read than remember any day. Yeah. My first sermon, I didn't use a manuscript.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 39:10

First one.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

First one. And he was not happy. He was not happy at all. He got he he he got accustomed to it after a while. He let he let me ride, let me slide, but he didn't like it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 39:23

I still have my first one.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Wrote it out. Yes, sir. Got it. Yes, sir. And I lament that I did not write it out. I didn't learn to write it out until later. Uh sometimes I used to just write an outline in the earlier years. Do you remember what the first text in the world? Absolutely. Galatians. Galatians uh chapter 6, verse 1. Standfast, therefore, in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. I called it standfast. And he got up behind me and cut it up real fast. Yes, sir. He chided me that day in morning worship. It was early morning worship service. He told me I was gonna preach that day. And I did not do enough work on the context of the text. It has an Old Testament context that I didn't know anything about. I'm a teenager. And uh so he said that's why we're gonna send him to seminary when he finishes college so he can know about the context. And now I am such a stickler for context that um that it kind of oozes out my pores when I'm trying to preach because of that that that very day. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 40:37

J. Pasbar. Um I I came up in that tradition that when he was at Calvary in Chester, because I went to Croza. Yes, sir. He I preached for him. I was so so nervous, so scared. I mean he said, Brother Mapson, you did absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Oh, they could get you told, sir. Nothing. That's just horrible to hear.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 41:11

And I mean, I got some amens and everything. Yes, sir. Absolutely nothing. Wow. He said, if you if you can't hope, then holler. If you can't holler, just cry. If you can't cry, just go into a frenzy, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yes, sir. Oh, they wow, Texas Barbary. I know that's Elvis, you're right, yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 41:55

Down the road from us, yes, sir. Almost in Texas, yes, sir. Absolutely. Yeah, well. Oh,

Hopeful Signs For Preaching Today

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 42:05

this is such a great conversation. What do you see um the preaching? Where do you see preaching going today as as you look out and see the kind of preaching um that's that's being heard and being preached in in a lot of settings? Um your preaching contains uh social justice elements, which I think preaching should. Um do you see enough of that? Um and if not, why? What do we need to do? Um black churches are not black, you know, and in the sense of capturing the the the pain and needs of black people and addressing that. Um what how do you see our future?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

If one looks out of this is, you know, metaphorically, if one looks out of that window, one could potentially say, Oh my goodness, we're in a mess. We're in trouble. Unfortunately, there's a second window just behind you, and there's another window that gives me bright hope for tomorrow. Um I um that's a hymn from I am a hymn. Everyone did catch that. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:50

Great is that faithful. Great is thy faithful stanzas.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

All three, not four this one. So this past Good Friday. Our church did something different. We've often had uh a preacher, a pastor, and a congregation to come to the church, and we just fellowship together on Good Friday at noon. This year I was led to do seven last word service. And I invited preachers under 50. So seven preachers under 50 came to preach. And each of the seven of them from different parts of the country were amazing. They were absolutely amazing. The rich content of the messages, the justice aspects of their messages, the inspiration. They had it all. All seven of them were amazing. Now, if you only look at some of the stuff on YouTube and some of the social media, I'm not on social media, but I get access sometimes to some um of the preaching that is passed around. That can be depressing or demoralizing. But I was heartened as I sat there and we had a three-hour service, sir. We did the sixth to the ninth hour. But I was heartened because they were all amazing. I think five of them were senior pastors, the other two uh were on staffs or or did do doing other work. But but I'm not pessimistic at all about preaching. There is a generation now coming out of seminary into the pastorate and other work that takes seriously the craft, the role and responsibility of the clergy person to to preach substantive messages. I think you'll always have that other crowd. Yeah. Uh there will always be that crowd that just wants a quick amen or easy hallelujah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 46:02

Which unfortunately is the most sometimes the most visible.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Um that's why I was glad we were able to see some people we may not have been able to see, because we don't have the the luxury of in our in our year to invite all seven of those people uh throughout the year. But because they were all able to be in a concentrated moment, we heard uh some substance that we may not have known existed. And so I I feel good about the church and what is going to be well, I'm I'm still believing that the church will never be without a witness for Jesus. And I'm still believe, I still believe that that the gates of hell will not prevail. I got I I believe all that, right? Absolutely uh and I believe that there are people who will always take seriously um the responsibility to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. It is God's church. It is God's church. Yeah, he's not gonna let his church fail. And whatever the statistics say. And and I hear all of them. I you know, I read uh what what what authors and sometimes skeptics have to say. Yeah. I don't buy into it. I still believe the church is is the is the the source by which the Lord seeks to keep his gospel alive. Congregations close. Yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 47:23

Especially, you know, here in in the northeast in our cities, man. It's it's uh you know the they decline in membership, neighborhood changes, gentrification. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Um and many of our many of our churches are the buildings have been stolen, school, and but the church belongs to God.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, sir. And I'm I'm because I'm such a church baby, a church man now, um I just believe that that uh we're going to see the church continue to thrive, not just survive. Nothing in church history has been able to kill the church. And so nothing that is to come will be able to do it either.

Building For Ministry Through The Pandemic

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:15

Yeah. Yeah. Going back to to Wheeler Avenue in terms of uh, and we I guess I think we all struggle with this too, when we those who build um building for something, you know, not just to build. And it seems like what you've done with ministry is to say this is what we need, this is the facility we need for that, rather than the facility now what we're gonna try to fit in it. Yes. Build it and they'll come. What they call back in the what is it, the 70s, 80s, edifice complex.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Uh yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:56

Yes, sir. Umplex. Edifice complex. Um and and some church some churches have taken criticism from people who, you know, why you uh friend in uh Walter Thomas and Baldwin, why are you building these and um well Harold Carter too, and he built uh he's building these buildings and people are hungry and all that, you know, just kind of that tired criticism. But um when you when you look at the the the build building and its purpose and what how it serves ministry, uh it seems to me that you you were conscious about making sure that the building was not just for the for bragging rights for a building. Yes sir. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Well, we knew we we needed a space, we knew that. Um our sanctuary where we where we were worshiping, although it's still on our campus now, it um it could not accommodate, man.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 50:00

Y'all talking about campuses.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Yes, sir. I learned that word when I got to Texas in terms of churches.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 50:10

Neighbor parking in your space.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Yo, mercy.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 50:12

Yes, sir. Separately. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yes, sir. Okay, go ahead back to the butt that that word was uh was the word that was used. Um I think part of it was because we were between two universities and they always say campus. But uh nevertheless, um we were having four services prior to the pandemic. Uh we had four Sunday services. 7 a.m., 9 a.m. 11 a.m. and 1 p.m. And each of them was full with overflow. So now contextualizing that, I must admit, I'm in Texas. I'm in Houston, Texas, the fourth largest city in America. So a lot of people, a lot of centers.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 50:56

That ain't working here. We're the fifth largest degree. We're the people. We're the people.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

They're in Texas. Yeah. That part. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So we we had a lot of people who were coming. Um and we had begun the building process before the pandemic. And so now there were when the pandemic hits and everybody's gone home, we're scratching our heads as to whether or not, you know, we really need to build. And we, of course, went up went on with it and built during the pandemic. So by the time the people came back, they came back to a new building. Uh and they felt trusting they were coming back. Absolutely. And it took a minute for them to come back. They did not come back in droves or in mass uh at the beginning of our re-entry. And so we were a little concerned um because we had built a fairly large building which doubled or more than doubled the capacity of the sanctuary. Capacity of this occurrence uh edifice is 2800. Okay. Yes. Uh I intentionally didn't want a large, large facility. And um, so my leaders really wanted me to reconsider that, and I wouldn't. Uh so we got to 2800, and uh we were doing two services until last month. And now we've started three services in that in that facility. And it's it's uh we didn't expect that. I didn't expect that. My brother, who's a deacon at our church and is on staff at our church, he told me he knew it was gonna happen. He knew it was gonna happen. He bet me 20 20 push-ups or 50 push-ups that that we would have that, and so I owe him push-ups. Um But um we we thought that the the building, the edifice would be for those that we could not properly accommodate at that time in the the pre-pandemic years. And um, so we were building for them with a little bit of lamentation, I have to admit, that we didn't build for what we did not know was coming. We didn't think about the fact that we would ever be at three services. I didn't. Or that the children's church would be overrun with babies. Um, the youth church, they have we have the youth church service on second and fourth Sundays, and they have two services. We never anticipated any of that. But I've been blessed, as I mentioned earlier, with these demographic leaders. They're amazing. They have significant gifts, uh, and they use those gifts to ensure uh the progress of those demographics. So the youth church is overflowed, the children's church is overflowing, uh the seniors meet on Mondays, and they have dozens up to a hundred or so seniors every every Monday on their on their Zoom call, a thing that they never thought they'd get accustomed to is Zoom. That was pre-pandemic, right? Pandemic, they had to get used to it, and now they act like they can't live without it. Um and then the young adults, uh, because of those campuses, remembering those two universities, we have a lot of college students and young adults. And they just keep coming, and I'm grateful. But that's how we uh have used our edifice.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 54:19

Right. And you will preach uh all of those services or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

I told I told folk, for better or for worse, if I preach one, I'm preaching all. Yeah. That's for now. I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know what's gonna happen in the years ahead. I do. I do, Reverend. Yeah, I I do all three right now.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 54:43

Do one and go home and go home.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Now that's already true. That's very true. But I go take a nap and come on back and do do the next service. But yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 54:53

And that's important, it's important to do. I mean, because you're the ones you preach, the ones you're saying are important to you, you know. Absolutely, you know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Exactly. Exactly. And we've got some very caring members who are very concerned that I would that I have to preach all three. I was preaching all four pre-pandemic, uh, but you know, that's been however many years. Uh it was 2020, it's 2026 now, so you know. Uh so try and we'll see what happens. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Family Priorities In A Demanding Call

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 55:26

Family-wise, just uh you you and your wife have known each other since Emmanuel Baptist Church.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

That's my life. Emmanuel has been my foundation for almost everything. Uh so we met at Emmanuel. Um, her parents and my mother uh were longtime members, almost founding members of Emmanuel. And so um I was the first baby born after Emmanuel was organized. And so we've been that, and my in-laws are still members of Emmanuel to this day. Uh my mother now lives with us in Houston, but uh my in-laws are there every Sunday. And uh she's been rolling with me since we were in high school. Yeah. They have a picture of me touching her. I was sitting behind her and I was touching her when we were in the children's choir. And um her mother now says, I knew back then that she was gonna be bothering my daughter for a long time. Yeah. And so since since those early days, she's been rolling with me. Yeah, yeah. Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:34

As a as a as a pastor, you know, we um have challenges with family in terms of just uh making sure that family is a priority. Sure. And uh all of that is uh how do you handle because you're you're uh gone how many doing doing the year how many how many I I'm assuming that Sunday mornings you're I'm at Wheeler Avenue Church, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

I mean Wheeler Avenue. Yes, sir. There's grace for us to be on Sunday morning. Absolutely. There are a few Sundays I'm not there, but they are very minimal. Um and they can count on me, even if I'm not there, uh well, if I'm not preaching, uh they can count on me to be there if we have a guest. But every first Sunday of the month, they know uh that that pastor that they they came to hear is gonna be there. Um so I am gone a lot. Uh have been for a long time. I I mentioned to you that I asked the Lord for itineracy, and the Lord gave it to me. And so that has been a reality that I've had to dance with. Um someone asked a few weeks ago, how do you balance it? I don't know that you ever balance it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 57:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

I don't know that there's an equal balance. You have to try to prioritize family while doing the work you've been called to do. And um and I've admittedly I've not always done it well.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 58:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Yeah. There have been some some moments that I lament, I regret, that I wasn't present. Uh um now we do birthdays big in our house, so there's never a day, never a birthday that I'm that I'm absent. No one gets a birthday. I it doesn't matter who asks, I'm not going to go on your birthday. That well, until recently, my grown son uh had a birthday, and then a pastor friend asked me to come. I got his permission before I accepted that that assignment. But um uh the the absence has been felt and I lament that. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 58:57

Yeah. Well, this

Subscribe And Closing Blessing

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 59:00

has uh been a great conversation and uh thank you so much, sir, Dr. Cosby, for uh taking this time, especially under this circumstance. And would like to thank Bishop Freeman and the Mount Calvary Baptist Church for allowing us to use their facility. Yeah, um and uh if today's conversation has uh added value to your ministry, we hope that you will subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss an episode. Thank you for being a part of Ministry Exchange, and until next time, may the Lord be with you.