Ep. 24 – The Church Has Been Fighting the Wrong Battle | Bishop Dwayne Royster

Some churches are known for serving their communities. Others are known for changing them. Bishop Dwayne Royster joins Dr. Mapson for a powerful conversation about faith, justice, organizing, and why the Church was never called to simply treat symptoms while ignoring the systems that create them.

As the Executive Director of Faith in Action, one of the world's largest faith-based grassroots organizing networks, Bishop Royster reflects on his journey from growing up in Philadelphia and sitting under the ministry of Dr. Leon Sullivan at Zion Baptist Church to leading a global movement that equips faith communities to organize for lasting change.

From his call to ministry while reading Jeremiah as a college student to his work mobilizing churches around issues of racial justice, education, housing, healthcare, and civic engagement, Bishop Royster challenges the Church to reclaim its prophetic voice and rediscover its responsibility in the public square.

This conversation also explores:

•  The difference between charity and justice—and why the Church must go "upstream" 
•  How Leon Sullivan shaped Bishop Royster's vision for ministry and community transformation 
•  Why Howard Thurman's writings continue to influence his leadership 
•  The relationship between pastoral ministry and prophetic ministry 
•  How Faith in Action and POWER Interfaith organize communities to create systemic change 
•  Why access to politicians is not the same as power 
•  The personal cost of leading movements for justice, including public criticism and family sacrifice 
•  Why the next generation of pastors must reclaim the Church's prophetic voice 

If you care about the future of the Black Church, faith-based organizing, prophetic leadership, civic engagement, and what it truly means to love your neighbor through action, this episode is for you.

🎙️ Subscribe to The Ministry Exchange and join the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ. And welcome to this second season and this edition of the Ministry Exchange. This podcast is designed for pastors and ministers and church leaders to help equip you and us in the work of ministry and to give some practical insights from some of the leading voices among us. And so we're delighted to have you with us once again. And certainly we're delighted to have as our guest today Bishop Dwayne Royster. And I have to spend a little time uh talking about introducing you, you know, so you you've heard all this. But he is the executive director of Faith in Action, which is one of the world's largest faith-based grassroots organizing networks. Uh and recently, uh 2024, he was appointed the organization's fourth executive director after serving as interim executive director and leading uh power interfaith in Pennsylvania for more than a decade. Uh Reverend Royster is an ordained bishop, he's a pastor, and a nationally respected faith leader with decades of ministry experience in the Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. area. Um graduate of Geneva College and uh United Lutheran Seminary, uh, and has done work at Palmer Theological Seminary as well. Uh he is married, has uh two daughters, two daughters, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yes, sir.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 2:02

Two daughters, uh, and um is a bishop in the United Church of Christ. Uh, we welcome you uh with us today, Bishop Royster.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Dr. Mapson. It is very wonderful to be to be able to sit here with you and to talk today.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 2:19

Thank you. Thanks for being here. Uh and for all that had to happen for this to happen the way that it did.

Philly Roots And Early Church Life

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 2:28

Um you're Philadelphian. Born and raised. Born and raised. Talk about uh what it's like growing up in Philadelphia. Uh and and interestingly enough, you you said to me earlier uh that your grandmother was a member of Zion Baptist Church. Zion Baptist Church. So you brought Venango. We got Baptist, UCC, little Methodists, right? Oh, yeah. It's a story.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

It's a story there. Let me let me talk about that for a minute. So again, thank you, Dr. Mapson, for having me on. I'm deeply honored to be able to be here today and to come and share. Uh, yeah, I was I'm a Philadelphia born and raised. I was born in Germantown, raised in East Mount Airy. I bought my first house in West Philly in Haddington. I graduated high school at Lincoln High School up in the northeast section of Philadelphia. I finished my undergraduate degree at Geneva when it was located in Honey Park, and I did my graduate work. Uh, I finished my graduate work at United Lutheran, which was Lutheran Theological Seminary of Philadelphia at the time, and uh up in uh Westminary Chestnut Hill area. So I am born and raised in Philadelphia. My mother, my father was from North Philly, my mother was from South Philly. There's not a part of Philadelphia that I didn't touch at some point in my life. Um, and excited about uh excited about that. And I I joke, my last church that I served was in Washington, D.C. And the folk would often talk about the fact that a lot of my sermonic references always reference Philadelphia, uh, even though I was in the D.C. area. I um so I grew up in a household. I tell the story of um my parents. Um, so my mother was a deacon's daughter. My grandfather was a deacon at Tasker Street Baptist, and my dad was raised by his grandparents, and his uh grandfather was a trustee at Miller Memorial. As a matter of fact, there's a uh picture, uh stained glass window in Miller Memorial, big one there, has John Baker's name in it because my grandfather literally helped to build the building. Um they they built it by hand, and so they helped to build it. So it was a stained glass window in there uh to my uh to my great-grandfather. Is that so? That was uh that was there. So got deep roots in the faith tradition. But my parents, um I what I refer to as the original spiritual nuns, um, they loved the Lord, but they didn't like the church. Um, which was always uh a really funny thing for us growing up. I mean, we learned to pray at my dad's feet, right? I mean, we couldn't touch food, couldn't touch something to drink until we had offered grace. Uh, my mother was praying with us every night, reading Bible stories to us, but we didn't have a church home. Eventually, my grandmother said to my mother, uh, I uh, you know, I'm I'm you y'all not taking my grandbabies to church anywhere. You all need to take them to church. Now, what my grandmother meant was that we needed to go to a good Baptist church.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 5:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

My mother decided to take us to the Unitarian Universalist Church, which was around the corner from us. And so, some early years we actually spent time there, but eventually we stopped going after a few years. And then I started going to church with my grandmother at Zion Baptist when Dr. Sullivan was the pastor there. It was in that space, um, as a young child, um, that I really saw the power of faith. Um, the power of faith to transform, the power of the faith to really um not be beholden to power, but to actually speak truth to power.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 5:47

Today's episode of the Ministry Exchange is supported by our silver partner, Palmer Theological Seminary, whose mission is the whole gospel for the whole world through whole persons. As one of the most diverse seminaries in North America, Palmer equips leaders through holistic ministry, justice-centered formation, and a global vision of the church. To learn more about their programs and mission, visit PalmerSeminary.edu and follow on social media at Palmer Seminary for more. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Um, and I uh I never forget. Well, I was young at the time. My mother tells this story, but I've never forgotten when she told me this. My grandmother came home one day from taking us to church because my parents didn't go, so my grandmother just took us. And she said to my mother, uh, my childhood nickname was Buff. And so uh she said, I think Buff is going to be a preacher. And I was probably six, seven years old at the time, something that age. Uh, and I was in awe of worship. I was in awe of the experience, uh, but I was also in awe of the fact of this black man having the audacity to say some of the things that he would say and then remind us that we are not weak, that we are powerful. Um, when I was 13, my grandmother died, stopped going to Zion at that point. Um, and I've had other experiences in the United Methodist Church. I started out in ministry at Canford Memorial United Methodist Church. I was associate pastor there for five years under the leadership of the Reverend Dr. Dorothy Watson Tatum. Um, I left that, actually joined the Mennonite Church. I was ordained in the Mennonite Church, started a new church in Philadelphia called Way of Life Ministries. I did that for several years, eventually closed that, went on staff at Harold O'Davis Church with Bishop Kermit Newkirk, and was there for several years. Um, and in the midst of all of that, I actually started doing organizing work as well.

A Call To Ministry And Conflict

SPEAKER_03 7:56

But, you know, all of that is a story about after I answered my call to ministry, which was when I was in college. I was a student at Boston College in uh Boston, Massachusetts. My sophomore year, and at BC it's a Jesuit school, so you're responsible for taking these religion classes. I had taken a class in the Old Testament. We would call it a Hebrew Bible now. So I was a student at Boston College, and uh sophomore year, I was 19 years old, um, and I had to take the Hebrew Bible class. And um, I was living in what's called 66 Commonwealth Avenue. What's interesting about that is that it's a former abbey. So I was living basically in a nun cell, it had been a nun cell for 70 years prior to that, before they turned it into a dormitory. And I was reading Jeremiah chapter one, and for a class, I had to write a paper on it. And I never forget I read the chapter and I just started crying profusely. I couldn't stop. Uh and I finally got up and I called my mother and I said, I know what I'm supposed to do with my life. Um, and I said, This is I'm supposed to do this ministry and it's supposed to do this work. And I'll never forget my mother looking at me and saying, I mean, not looking, but if we were on the phone because she was here in Philly, I was in Boston. And she said, Absolutely not.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 9:14

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SPEAKER_03 9:59

Absolutely not. She said, Your father and I didn't send you there to be a minister. You know, you know how we feel about church. Um, and she's like, You're a political science major. The plan is you go get your poly sci degree, you go to law school, and then you come back home. And so we didn't send you up there for this. And I said, I feel really convicted this is what I'm supposed to do. And my mother said to me, um, and I'm thankful she said it now, not then, but um, she said, Well, if that's what you want to do, we're not paying for it. And so I wound up leaving school. I left school as a result of that. Um, and I wound up paying for the rest of it myself. Now, my parents, my boyfriend have said to me, you know, wow, we're sorry we did that. But I told them, I said, I'm actually grateful that you did. I said, because I I I knew who I was. I've always tried to please my parents.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Um, and I had to know that this was a thing between me and God, and not, they were not involved in it. Um, and so the fact that I was willing to risk their wrath to stand up and to do that, um, and it caused a lot of tension between me and them for several years about this. Um eventually my mother came back into the church. She's very active in her church now. Um, but my dad never did, but my mother did. And um, she's like, Oh, I wish we had supported you more. And I was like, No. I said, You all did what you were called to do. I said, I have to know this for myself. It can't be about you, it's got to be about my call. And I had to, you know, I mean, I went through some rough days as a result of that, some very difficult moments. But I'm grateful um how that turned out the way that it did.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 11:32

Wow. That's that's a that's a great story. If you had buckled under and said, well, okay, you're not paying, then that would have been it. That's right. That's right. But a but a denial of your calling. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

And that would have been frustrated.

Leon Sullivan And Church Power

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 11:50

Yeah, definitely. Wow. Yeah. Well, it it seems like the go back to Zion because it's it seems that we don't know when I say we, I mean I don't think this generation really appreciates right here in Philadelphia a Leon Sullivan. Um just just talk about you're sitting up there on Sunday mornings listening to to this giant.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:25

You know, world worldwide giant.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:29

Right, right at Zion Baptist Church. What is that, what was that like? I mean, the lion of Zion.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Yeah, absolutely. And he wasn't very much a lion. I mean, he was 6'6 and just big gray mane of hair, you know, that he had. Um, I mean, you know, I didn't I didn't get close to him because I was a child, right? He wasn't really talking to me. I mean, my grandmother was a stalwart in the church. Um, I mean, I think it was powerful because he gave me uh an example, he showed me what it meant to be powerful as a religious leader. And so, I mean, contrast that from the Unitarian Universalist experience, which I had, which was a beautiful experience, but it wasn't leaning into the power the way that that Dr. Sullivan was leaning in, and the way that he was able to move people and help people to see a bigger vision for what we could have in the city. Uh, my father still owns my grandmother's share in Progress Plaza, which is still down on Broad Street, uh, because they sold shares to raise the money necessary to build Progress Plaza. First African-American mall in America. It still exists to this day. Um, you know, was very present with OIC. It was just, it gave me such an expansive view of the power of the church, that it's not limited to just preaching and teaching, baptisms, weddings, communion, um, but it actually had a much more expansive communal impact that actually had the power to change the world. And so I think for me, I um I adopted a saying that um I would share with people all the time. And I would say, they were like, Well, what's your call about? I said, I'm trying to change the damn world. I said, Because too many people waking up feeling like they're living in hell already. And I I remember Sullivan was pointing to us over and over again, you don't have to live this way. That we actually have the power to live differently if we'll come together, we'll work together. And he was demonstrating that every day by his leadership at Zion.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 14:20

Yeah, yeah. And model both. When I was a pastor, I mean, he loved as a pastor, but I think it's important that I think it's important that you model both. Absolutely. And at the same time, this vision of the power of the black church that you saw in that has kind of been it shaped me.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Even though I was a young child there, it shaped me that anytime I talk about this, people are like, well, you know, what's your model? I go back to Leon Sullivan. Now, he he probably didn't know that I was sitting in there. You know, I mean, he said, kids everywhere, right? At that time, kids were everywhere in the church. Um, you know, but that's okay because he presented a model to me. It said, you can have dignity and respect and still be powerful. You don't have to sell out. You can do what you need to do and you can help the community to grow and become more powerful than what it is. And that's what I wanted. I talk people when I, you know, I answered my call to ministry. I said, I don't, yeah, I was called to preach and teach and, you know, provide the ordinances and uh, you know, the sacraments of the church. I agree with all that. But I also know that deeply inside that call to ministry, in verse 10 of 1 Jeremiah, it says, I put you over nations and over kingdoms to pluck up and pull down, destroy and overthrow, build and to plant. And I take seriously that particular aspect of the call because I don't believe it's the responsibility of faith communities to subvert themselves to government, but instead for us to assert ourselves in a way that brings out the moral good for all, regardless of faith, regardless of race, regardless of culture, to bring out the moral good of all. And, you know, we're in a moment right now where everything's being uh deconstructed, and I'm not sure we're gonna be able to stop all of it, but I do know that eventually we're gonna get to fallow ground. And it's at that moment that we can begin the process of building and planting and then building something more beautiful and more in line with the will of God than what we have right now.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 16:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Did you

Pastoring While Doing Prophetic Work

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 16:20

ever feel that in terms of pastoral ministry, that's how can I put this that there was any tension between the two for you? Um because it there's some moment that you're describing where you're saying I'm I'm being pulled to more than just the pulpit and and the priestly pastoral, but this is burning in me, and I got to do this. Um a help or hindrance, or was that?

SPEAKER_03 16:58

I think it was both. I mean, I I think it was a blessing in many ways. And I mean, I love my folk, right? I was a pastor to them, and there was no doubt about it. I did the weddings, communion, the funerals, all those things. And I did that with the love that I had for the folk. But I also felt, um, and I mean, not all clergy feel this way, but for me, the prophetic work that I was doing, and I separate the priestly and the prophetic, I mean, just the stepping into the prophetic. Um, the beauty about pastoring in the midst of doing the prophetic work was that I was accountable to a set of people every week who called me pastor. And to live out the gospel in a way that it was transformative, not just in their spirits, but actually in their material lives. Um, and so I felt, and I felt that that was actually helping to ground me because my work actually had to be tangible when I came back into that church, when I was talking to those folk, when they were telling me about the kids, when one of my members got shot, right? It there was something very tangible about all of that that was absolutely critical. And it's like, you know, it's not enough just to say, I'm going to pray for you. It's like, how are we actually going to work it so that another child doesn't get shot or schools get the money that they need? Or, you know, we're doing something about housing, or we're trying to uh address wages at, you know, at the airport, which is one of the big campaigns Power Interfaith did, um, that we're actually helping people live full, better lives. And that's part of the work I feel of the church as well. So for me, it was a both and. And actually, now that I'm, you know, leading this global organization, I actually miss um sometimes being in a local church pulpit because when you look at those faces, it helps to ground your work every single day. It helps to ground the justice work that I'm doing because if it's not impacting those folk, then it's not real.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:45

Right. Mm-hmm. I see. What

Thinkers Who Shaped His Theology

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:50

is who are some of the other are there other other voices? I ask a question all the time. Um when you when you stand to preach, or when you s when you lecture, when you're in a uh a panel, when you're doing the the work that you do. Sure. Who are are there other voices that you hear that that are that speak to you that have influenced you? Um even authors, I mean, preachers, authors, leaders.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So um Howard Thurman changed my life. Um really? Yeah, yeah. Jesus and the disinherited. Yes. Um, and actually, I didn't get that I didn't get that far in. The the introduction, second paragraph down, Thurman asked the question, what does your faith have to say to people with their backs against the wall? And that's been a driving force for me ever since I read that passage. So Thurman has been absolutely critical uh to my understanding and to the work. And I mean, he was he was respected, but he wasn't, you know, he wasn't like the the top 10 preacher of all the time.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 19:55

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

But I mean, he was an intellectual, he was a thinker, he was a mystic in many ways. Um, but Thurman, um, and some of Thurman's writings actually were very uh they're they're constantly with me. It's the one book I read every year, Black History Month.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 20:10

Jesus and the Disenherited.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah, Jesus and the Disenherited. It's a great book. And it and it's it's not a hard book.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 20:15

He's Boston.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Yes, but that was at University of Boston University, right? He was dean of the chapel at the time. Um so I mean, Thurman, I think, is one of those um that have greatly influenced me. I mean, I've talked about uh Dr. Stephen Ray, who was the former uh president of Chicago Theological Seminary, um, was actually a professor of mine at uh Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. Actually, I took all my theology classes with Steve Ray. Um, and he's also my fraternity brother, so I have to shout that out as well. Um Iodophy Theta. Uh-huh. So um, you know, I think Steve has helped shape me a great deal, even though he he's very much a Calvinist, I am not. So, but I mean uh he's helped me to shape my thinking and the way that um I articulate things and and help me deepen my own personal theology so that I can do my work with integrity. Um and so I really uh deeply appreciate all that um Steve has done. I mean, I would also say there have probably been some women as theologians. Certainly Katie Cannon uh was a part of that. Um, and uh, you know, I I so deeply appreciate um woman's thought in in much the same way that I also appreciated Dr. Cohn, James Cohn, liberation um uh theology, uh black liberation theology, and all that's come with that. And I'm I'm trying to get into Latin American liberation theology to try to understand their worldview of it um a little bit more. So I'm always trying to grow and trying to deepen. I mean, I I've read Gutierrez and some other folk, but I want to dig into it a little bit more to understand where they're coming from.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 21:50

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Talk talk about your work and um um power. You know, some of the challenges. Uh and and and what do you see as the challenges facing the black church in terms of that kind of engagement? Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Yeah.

Faith In Action And Organizing Model

SPEAKER_03 22:17

So let me so right now I lead uh the Faith in Action Network. So we are a grassroots faith-based uh organizing movement, a global organizing movement. So we started 50-some odd years ago in California. It was founded by a Jesuit priest. Um and we've grown since then. We operate in about 26 states around the U.S. right now, and in 14 countries around the world. So we are in every continent except Australia and Asia. Um we have five countries in Africa we're working with. We have uh several countries in Central and South America that we work with, plus Mexico, we're in Haiti, in the Caribbean. Um, and we are constantly growing every year with new uh countries that we're adding to where we're actually organizing with communities of faith. And I should say we don't disorganize Christians. So Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikhs, Hindus, I mean, it's a little bit of everybody that's in that mix. And what we're really trying to do is bring people of faith and moral courage together to be able to speak truth to power, fight for the things that their communities need, and understand they have power and agency to do that. The local manifestation here in Philadelphia is uh Power Interfaith, which I led for about a total of 10 years and two separate times, five years, two separate times. It was originally called Philadelphians Organized to Witness Empower and Rebuild. Um, and we were a local faith-based organizing movement that grew and eventually became a statewide movement where we were organizing in Philly and in Lancaster and Allentown and Harrisburg, um, and in counties out in Montgomery County and Bucks County and so forth. And basically, it's about bringing together communities of faith, not just the pulpit, but the pews to have conversations, to help people discover what their self-interest is, what is it that keeps them up at night? And then how do we find our shared interest and begin to organize people to work towards solving those problems? Not absent government, but actually leveraging both uh corporate community and the business community, I mean the government community, into addressing those issues that exist. So our first big campaign was at the Philadelphia Airport around raising the city of Philadelphia 21st century living wage. Uh, when we started, it was like 10 something an hour. It was 150% of the minimum wage. We eventually got that up to $15 an hour and then got it so that it adjusts every year based on the cost of living. We worked to fight to get a new funding formula for the state of Pennsylvania that was not discriminatory against black districts. Uh, Power Interfaith, one of our leaders, who was a great uh data person, figured out the racial bias in state funding for school districts. Um, there are 115 districts in the state of Pennsylvania that are majority black and brown. Um there are 500 school districts in the state of Pennsylvania. I should be clear about that. Over 100 of them are black and preponderance of black and brown students. There is an $1,800 to $4,500 per year gap uh that the state is not paying those districts for students, but the white districts are getting that additional money. Per child. Per child, which adds up uh to Philadelphia's school district, it was about $400 million a year they should have been getting from the school that from the state that they were not getting. And so we fought to get the funding formula changed, and then we're fighting to make sure that the state then began to adjust their giving so that uh the school districts that have been discriminated against were getting that money. They're almost there. That we we won the funding formula. It's the implementation of the money that became a big issue. Um, there was a variety of things that we're doing, like even working on trying to just get people out to vote, doing education around that within congregations and communities. Um, so I mean that's a lot of our work. It's like we we were really working on three things, right? We're trying to address systems, structure, and culture. And the culture of faith communities, that they recognize they have power, and then really going after the systems, the government structures, this the laws, the policies, the administrative orders that actually govern our lives to make sure that those policies, the structures of government itself uh and the laws were lining up so that our people could flourish and thrive to the best of their ability.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 26:35

Yeah. Because it seems the question is not just uh or the issue is not just churches. I mean, we all, you know, we do things in our communities, you know, uh feeding programs and that kind of thing. But the real question is why why are people hungry?

unknown 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

That's right. You gotta go upstream, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 26:54

Right, yeah. I mean So Yeah. So I mean, and and we you know, we've done that over the years, and you and and people who come used to come once a week and get a meal, but there's also what are the resources that they need so they won't be coming there at some point. So it's the it's the institutional change it seems to me that that has to be addressed and that you're addressing, otherwise we'll just continue to be to to kind of putting band-aids on uh and and feel good

Going Upstream On Root Causes

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 27:27

about it.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Yeah, there's a story that's told, um, and I've seen it in a bunch of different places, uh, but about the babies in the river. I don't know if you've ever heard that at all.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

No.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

So there was a story uh folk were at at a park area, and um they were standing out by a river, a stream, a river, and they saw a baby coming down the river by itself. And so people jumped in the water to go save the baby. And they got the baby, they brought the baby back out of the river, but then they noticed that there was another baby coming down the river. And all of a sudden they kept seeing babies coming down the river. And so they kept jumping in, and people are getting exhausted, they're tired, they're they're like, you know, what's going on? And finally somebody said, we need to go up the river to figure out why the babies are coming down the river. Like, how are they getting in the water in the first place? And I think what's happened in the church, at least, you know, in the last two or three decades, we've gotten to the place where we're accustomed to getting babies out of the river. But we haven't been willing to go up the river to go find out why the babies are coming in there so we can stop them from getting into the water in the first place. Yeah. And that's part of the, that's part of the work that we do. We we don't do direct service stuff. We don't feed the hungry, we don't clothe the naked. We we're trying to figure out how to make it so that we don't need to feed people, we don't need to clothe them, that we don't that they don't get sick because they've got um, you know, the health care that they need, right? We're trying to go upriver and stop all these things and these problems that we're having from happening in the first place.

Power Moves Politicians Not Proximity

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 28:52

Yeah, yeah. So so with politicians, for instance, that's that um they probably don't like you much.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

They don't. They don't. And it's fine. I mean, I'm I'm not here to be their friend, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

I mean, I think, and this is also a notion of like, how do we have um how do we understand power, right? I I never forget early on when I was originally starting Power Interfaith, I was actually in conversation with one of our colleagues across Philadelphia. And um, they really didn't want to talk to me, but they met me anyway. And um they were showing me all their plans that they had, and they're like, Yeah, you know, I've got the congressman with me, I got the mayor with me, and um they're you know, telling me about their relationship and all these things. And I'm like, wow, that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that. And I said, Hey, um, you know, since you have this relationship with the mayor, part of what we're trying to work on is get the wage raised in Philadelphia. And I know you got the mayor's phone number because you told me you got the mayor's phone number. Would you call the mayor right now and ask the mayor to raise to raise the wage? Well, that's that's not what I'm like, it's not real power if you can't move them to do what they need to do. And so I don't come in, I'm not just there. And I mean, I'm a former politician, so I get this too, right? Um I'm not there to be your friend. Um, you know, in organizing, we say no permanent friends, no permanent enemies. Um, my job is to be there, make sure the community and I are in one and that they're there with me and making demands so that our community can flourish and thrive. And that doesn't always work, right? It doesn't make folk comfortable. I never forget I had one politician say to me, Well, you know, you're a part of our party, because I was, again, a former politician. And I'm like, Yes, I am, and you all still have to deliver. You need to deliver for people. I don't care what your party is, your job is to deliver. If you're not delivering, I'm coming after you. Um, and uh until you actually deliver for this. The corporations are paying millions, billions of dollars a year for lobbyists to go in there and do the exact same thing. Why is it a problem when I show up, but you don't have a problem with the lobbyists showing up, basically doing the same thing. So, uh, or making demands of you. We're gonna make demands. The community's got demands. After all, the community is essentially your boss. And we teach our people that that you are the boss. We we actually go into meetings where we train people, point to yourself and say, I am the boss. So when you go in with that politician, you recognize they work for you, you don't work for them. Um, and that every four years, you have or every two years, all depending on you actually have the power to determine their future if they don't do what you need them to do. And a lot of people don't understand that that that that actually they are in charge. Um, now you got to organize more people with you to be able to make the change if you want to make the change, but you're in charge. You you don't step back from them. You are their equal and more.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 31:44

Yeah, but sometimes we're just so enamored to be in the room with them and to to to to know have the number or something. They all put their pants on the same way we do. Yeah, yeah. This episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner, Terry Funeral Home, Incorporated. For over 85 years, they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion, and consistency. Under the leadership of Gregory T. Burrell, Terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name, offering guidance and support when it's needed the most. Whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss, Terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity, clarity, and compassion when families need it the most. To find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence, visit Terry FuneralHome dot com and thank you. Yeah, when they come to our churches and they come to our church and I and I this this the other thing came up uh earlier uh in terms of even when they are politicians of our color, they don't get a pass.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

No.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 33:20

Because they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

No. Yeah. Because their job is to care for the people. Yeah. And I mean, we we put folk in office because we felt like they were going to care for our needs. And if you're not caring for our needs, then you don't get the pass. I mean, I you know, I'm I'm I'm very critical. I'm gonna probably use some language, you might have to edit this later. But uh, you know, I mean, part of it is I feel like a lot of times politicians pimp the black church.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Um, we want to show up, we want to, you know, come to your pulpit, wave at the people during election season. We might throw you $1,000 or two from some youth program that you have. But when you actually begin to put demands on them, all of a sudden they're running and they don't want to stay and have the conversation or make an appointment and come talk to me. And it's like, no, you don't get to come in here until you have delivered what it is we need for our community. Um, and you know, I think we have to we have to shift the relationship that we have with political leaders and not feeling so honored when they show up at our door, but they should feel honored when we allow them to come in our door, um, which is uh a whole different response and a different way of viewing it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 34:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So then how do you um get that message? It it does seem like sometimes that that that once they're supported by the black community, then you can no longer talk to them at a distant. So could it be that regardless of party or race, that there could be people who don't look like us or not of our party who can who may be willing to deliver more than they are?

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Well, I mean, they they need us for votes, they go to other people to get money.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Um, and so we have to organize ourselves in such a way um that we actually are powerful in a block that they can't break us. And so if they want something, they're gonna have to deliver it. They want our votes, you got to deliver. Um, you know, we work on the issues that are important to our community. You deliver on our issues, we support you. Um, you know, if you don't deliver on our issues, uh, we're not gonna support you. And we have to be like really upfront about that. You know, it was a conversation earlier uh when we were um uh with the conference, and um, you know, it was very clear that yeah, we can't necessarily support individuals, but we can support issues that are important to us.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 35:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

And so are you good on our issues? Are you standing with us? Are you delivering? Do you have a history of standing for our issues? Because some folks will be like, yeah, I I'm I'm with you on your issue, but when I go back and check your record, you're nowhere near where we need you to be. So are you going to stand on that? And and then can we have a conversation about those issues that are pertinent to us?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 36:05

Yeah. And maybe a non-Christian who who may be closer on the issues.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 36:11

Uh we see that all the time across the country.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Absolutely. I mean, it's happening right now. Yeah, absolutely. That that, and I mean, and this is the thing. I mean, for us, again, you know, power, interfaith, and or faith in action, we're not just Christian organizations. We're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, ethical humanists, right? There are common issues that are common to all of us as human beings. And so we work on those shared issues, but we do it from a moral lens. Um, and so, yeah, there might be non-Christians that that are going to do better for us than some of our Christian folk. Well, I mean, some of the Christian leaders are white Christian nationalists. I wouldn't vote for them to do anything. Absolutely. I I don't want to be anywhere near that. Absolutely not.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 36:49

Yeah. Absolutely not. Yeah. What is

Black Church Tensions And Decolonizing Faith

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 36:54

what is your struggle in terms of um when you when when you look at where where we are now, but the in terms of the black church, for instance, what is it that uh I looked I I looked at a list of uh churches that are members of power. Sure. Right? Not many black churches.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

There was at one point.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 37:17

Yeah. Um what do we need to do? And or why or or what is it we need to do? First of all, it it it also says that in spite of what we see as w white Christianity in America, there are pockets of white churches and pastors who have caught that vision. Um as it was in the civil rights movement. There were there were there were a few black leaders uh uh at risk uh when they joined the movement and were put out of the churches and also ostracized by their families.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

That's right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 37:55

So we still have it. But it's it's the voice of of the the Christian nationalists and uh white evangelicals that that we hear.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Yep. So I mean, there's a couple of things here. One, um we have to decolonize our faith. The way that we have been taught Christianity, and many of us through our education process, um have been taught, uh, Dr. Sharon Grambe Sabukwe said this earlier today, that we've been taught to save souls, um, you know, to care for the people and to stay out of politics, um, which is interesting because the very people that were teaching us that actually are inside politics and very loud and making a lot of investments in that work, right? So we need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that somehow or another we're going to sit on the sideline and we're just gonna preach everybody into the sweet by and by, and that somehow or another we're gonna arrive and that it's okay for us to suffer. Now, they're not suffering, but it's okay for us to suffer it. I'm I'm not accepting that. Um, that I'm accepting the fact that we have work that we have to do uh to be able to get into that place. Now, I do think, and I mean, this has been my experience throughout the years trying to build power, working with black congregations, right? Um, black congregations tend to be more um biblically conservative, but they're but they're progressive on some issues, but not on all issues. So social issues, they tend to not be as progressive on. Um, but you know, issues that are pertinent to like, you know, life and things like that, um, you know, become wages on housing or things like that. They're more progressive. But when it comes to lifestyle things, they have a tendency to be more conservative. And power and faith and action was open to everybody. And so sometimes that created a tension that existed um in that space. I would also say that it's there's a cultural nuance to it as well, right? We were Christian, Jewish, Muslim. So, you know, we would go to one of the synagogues to do a clergy meeting. Well, we're not having pork when we're there. And, you know, I have to admit um that when we had our breakfast meetings, I always wanted to have them at a black church. Because black church knew you were gonna have, you know, you're gonna have uh home hash browns, home fries, you're gonna have eggs. There was gonna be turkey bacon and then regular bacon and the sausage and biscuits and gravy and grits. And grits, absolutely had to have grits, and there's gonna be two different kinds of drinks there in the morning and everything. Um and I that that was that was that was good. But when we went in other places, we had to, we had to sort of abide by their rules. And some of them were vegan or vegetarian places and things of that nature. Um, and you know, for some of our folk, they were like, I I I gotta go eat after this lunch meeting. You know, so that was that was a challenge that we we had to work with. But also, um we were working in big tent space. Sorry, just one second. Don't want that noise. Gotcha. We were working in big tent space, um, which um didn't mean there was always going to be one cultural nuance. I I remember sharing with um some of our our leaders at one clergy leaders at one point in power, and they were like, um, you know, how come more African-American clergy aren't here? And I was like, have you ever been to an African-American uh ministerial meeting or anything like that? And they were like, No. I said, it's a different culture completely. And I said, you all don't lean into that culture. Um and I said, you know, some people don't feel comfortable not being in the space where their culture is centered or, you know, understood.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 41:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

And so, you know, that was always a challenge. Um, and I think sometimes for some of our clergy, they uh African-American clergy, black church, they didn't approve of some of our tactics, right? We were more aggressive, right? We were willing to get arrested. Uh, we were, you know, even though the history of the civil rights movement was that. But we also have to be honest, not all black churches got down with the civil rights movement, right? There were people that actually worked against Dr. King, African-American leaders that worked against Dr. King. So, I mean, we went with the folk that were willing to go, were willing to be organized in, we're willing to be trained to do the work. Um, and so I think we're in a moment, though, that we have to sort of reclaim some of that civil rights uh piece. I I the 90s and the early 2000s for the black church were a very dangerous time because theologically we got way off track. Um, and I think a lot of it had to do with sort of the name and the claimant, the, you know, all those kind of movements, the prosperity movement that took us away from grounding us in um making being centered in the work of fighting for our communities. Because we were upwardly mobile at that moment. We were coming out of the civil rights movement where we could move wherever we wanted to, you know, get fancy houses and places we never could before. And so we, I think we all thought that we were going to continue to be on that trajectory, and so our theology changed. Except we get to the early 2000s, and you know, we we get to the Obama administration. I think we thought we arrived. And then, you know, for all intents and purposes, all hell breaks loose uh because now as a black man in the White House, um, and we are now out of the practice of fighting in the ways that are going to be conducive for bringing about justice for our community. And now we've got to learn to reclaim that, and it's gonna take some work.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

I hope I answered your question there. I know it was all around.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:17

Yes, yes, yes.

Minneapolis ICE Actions And Clergy Arrests

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:19

Your uh experience in um Minneapolis.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:23

Um talk about that because there was such a a moment uh for us as a people and for a nation, and you were right in in the midst of that by choice.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Yeah. Yeah, we uh took 40 semi-clergy out to Minneapolis from around the country um to go stand with our we have a partner out there, Isaiah, which is a big faith-based organizing uh organ group in Minnesota and St. Paul area. And uh there were big marches taking place. We were going out to support that and on the ground.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 43:58

Um the background. For that.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

Sure. So Minneapolis was a major operation by ICE. Yeah. That they were out there trying to go after the immigrant community. And we should say that a preponderance of the immigrant community in Minneapolis are Africans. They're Somalis. And so major violent things that were happening earlier on before we went, there was a woman killed by ICE who was tagging ICE, tracking ICE, and keep track of what they were. They had a system out there where they were communicating with one another. She was killed. There was major uh action. 25,000 people from around the country showed up to march in negative 23-degree weather. I was out there with them. It was cold. I was wearing five layers of clothing. And we went and we did training together and we talked about uh the work and how we could take it back to our various communities around the country. And there was a massive amount of movement. And we felt for that day, ICE basically backed up their operations and said, okay. The next day after everybody left, I literally was on a plane. Um, and I just so happened um I had my Wi-Fi on on the plane because I could get it through the airline. And my phone is just going crazy uh because they just killed Alex Preddy. Uh and uh Alex Pretty was the nurse that was out there trying to help somebody that had been beaten up by ice and trying to help save them. Um Alec, they claimed Alex had a gun. He didn't have a gun on him. He was a he was a license, he was licensed to carry a gun, but didn't have one on him. And they wound up uh shooting and killing him multiple times, shooting him multiple times and killing him. Um I got back, I landed in D.C. uh and immediately started organizing faith leaders from around the country to come to Washington, D.C. Because the Department of Homeland Security was trying to get $170 billion more for their ICE operations to basically torment the rest of the country, which they had done. We have folk that are in Delaney Hall right now up in Newark that are fighting there. Our organization, Faith in New Jersey, is on the ground, one of the leading faith organizations that's maintaining that watch over there as those folk are on a hunger strike. The detainees are on a hunger strike. Um, and so we organized 72 hours, 450 clergy from around the country come in. 200 of them have never taken any action in their careers like this at all. Um, as a result of that, they went, we did meetings with senators, and then we actually staged an action inside the Hart Senate building. 58 of us went. Uh, 35 of for the first time have ever taken any comment of civil disobedience action in their lives. Uh, 58 of us were arrested, including uh, you know, our colleagues we were talking to, Dr. Weathers and uh Dr. Sambuque, uh, were arrested along with me and all these other clergy from around the country, uh, because we were standing there telling the telling the Senate do not pass the DHS budget. Department of Homeland Security. Let me be clear about that. Because when you say DHS affiliate, it means something else. But uh it's the Department of Homeland Security. Um, that budget did not pass for seven months. Uh there was actually a partial shutdown over the DHS budget, and we worked diligently to prevent that uh from passing for at least seven months, and then eventually it did pass through some maneuvering that the MAGA folk did um in Congress. But we fought um to keep folk from doing that because we had spent time in the belly of the beast uh during that operation that ICE was carrying out in Minnesota where people were being snatched left and right. Um they were snatching black folk, they were snatching brown folk, and they were killing white folk at the same time, all because um they felt that these folk did not deserve to be in this country. The children of immigrants were trying to get immigrants out of this country.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

That's not good. Children of European immigrants, we should say, were busy working trying to get black and brown immigrants out of this country. Yeah. So a challenge.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:11

Yeah, quite a challenge, yeah. Family

Family Sacrifice And Real Threats

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:14

life, I mean, you're uh uh as as a minister, as an activist, uh pastor, preacher, all of that. Um how does that impact um home life, yeah, marriage, children, and and and sacrifice that is made for for that to happen?

SPEAKER_03 48:38

My wife and I were talking about that this weekend. Um so I have two daughters. Uh my eldest is 35, my youngest just turned 22. Well, they're both be 35 and 22 next week. They're 13 years and a day apart. Um and um, I mean, luckily for the early days of their lives, I was very local in terms of what I was doing. So while there was a lot of meetings and stuff, it was fine. My my youngest daughter sort of saw me more as coming in and out because I was flying here and yon uh to do what I had to do. I mean, I think my wife has had to um uh kind of adjust to um sometimes she doesn't know if I'm coming home or I'm gonna she's gonna get a phone call from jail. That's that is um uh that's been part of our our journey together.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Um and that's in this particular moment, I think it's been um a challenge because um, you know, there folk like me can become quickly targets of the administration for the things that we're doing. But I remind her, and um, you know, we've talked about this. I mean, I'm I've I've said I don't know that I will fully see the the implementation of my work. But right now I'm fighting for my five-year-old grandson to be able to live in a world that's far different than the one that he's experiencing right now. And so we're laying into that and willing to make that sacrifice. Um, you know, we've had colleagues and friends be detained, some be deported, um, some, you know, who are not immigrants, be detained by the police and ICE for the work that they're doing. Um and we are, you know, prepared for that reality at any moment in time, that that could always be a possibility. Some years ago, I um when I was the political director for Faith in Action, I was political director years ago before I became the executive director, and I wound up doing an interview on Fox News, on Tucker Carlson's show. Um, and that was uh a big problem. We had 2,000 death threats. Um, they came after my church here in Philadelphia, Living Water, UCC. Um, and I wasn't even the pastor there anymore. And I'd left. Um, they came after our organization, Faith in Action, and somehow or another they found my wife's cell phone number online and people were calling and threatening her. And I think that that was just a real wake-up call to us about the work that I was doing and the impact and um, you know, the fact that we need to be prepared. You just don't know what folk are going to do and what they're gonna say. Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your question about home life, yes, when we have time together, we make sure it's good quality time as best of our ability, because we just don't you just don't know.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 51:19

Yeah, we I guess we're we're called to this work, but they're not spouse's not in uh that kind of adjustment. Then some ministers go into ministry after they're married. That's that's another piece to that, too.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

But you were you were I was 22 when I started pastoring. So I was 22 years old, yeah. So I'm 50, I'll be 57 in October. So I've been at this for a lot of years. Yes, you have.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 51:44

Yes. Go back to

Founding Living Water Church

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 51:46

Living, talk about Living Waters.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

Yeah, so Living Water Church. I founded Living Water in uh 2004. And um, it was originally a non-denominational church. It was a progressive, non-denominational church deeply rooted in justice. Um, and then uh my mentor, uh, one of my mentors, uh Bishop Kermit Newkirk, said to me one day, he said, uh he said, Royster, um, you know, you should talk to the United Church of Christ because your theology is really up there, Avenue. And um, and a lot of people didn't realize Harold O. Davis Baptist Church was actually a UCC congregation as well.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 52:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

And um he's like, you need to talk to the UCC folks. So I eventually uh went and had a conversation with them. And um, and so we started Living Water, which started out in North Philadelphia, actually in the West Kensington area, um, and uh as a little tiny house church uh that we grew. Um and it was actually at one point half uh Dominican, Puerto Rican and then half black. Um and it was a really interesting place to be. We were right there on Germantown Avenue, right near Fifth and Germantown and uh did that for several years. Then we eventually moved up to um Oxford Circle area. We actually bought a Lutheran church up there and moved to Oxford Circle. Um and so I I was served there from 2004 to 2016. And in 2016 I left to go work in Washington, DC with Faith in Action.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 53:09

What structure-wise, what what is the structure? You say you started the church. I mean, you you can you can do that, or you did that. I did it. You did it, but and but the structure of the church is is is it a structure with bishops?

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yeah, so I mean, we should explain a couple of things. So you mentioned earlier I was a bishop in the United Church of Christ. Actually, I wasn't a bishop there, I was a bishop in uh fellowship of churches that Bishop Newkirk started. Um so I was consecrated as a bishop in higher ground Christian Fellowship International. The United Church of Christ actually doesn't have bishops. I didn't think they don't have bishops, but um, I was I was consecrated a bishop in that fellowship, and I was basically his number two to higher ground um and did that for almost uh, I mean God, almost 20 years while he was alive and did that work. So, I mean, Living Water Church uh started as a non-denominational church. So the structure, I mean, I had spent a lot of time in the Methodist church and the Mennonite church, and to be honest with you, it looked like a Baptist church. The structure was we had deacons, we had trustees, um, you know, as pastor, but we were a part of both, eventually part of the UCC, but also part of higher ground. So uh Bishop Newkirk was the bishop that was overseeing us in the church plant in the early days, and then we became a part of the UCC as well. So we were both simultaneously, we had dual relationships and continue that dual relationship to this day. So uh, yeah, that was a part of it. But then after he died, I actually left and started left higher ground and started a um ecumenical religious order called the Society for Faith and Justice, which was really geared towards supporting clergy that felt that their primary call was to do the work of justice because we didn't really have space for them to do that work. Like everything was really focused on the pastoral ministry, and we had not really focused on the development of clergy that were serving in a prophetic role. Um, and so we uh began to do that work and uh to help shape people, both pastors and then uh what we call pastors in the public square. My colleague, um Dr. Cassandra Gold talks about that as pastors in the public square that were actually serving in the streets with the people, um, helping to organize and helping them to build their view of the power they needed to transform their communities.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 55:28

Right. And then uh our friend Reverend O'Rourke succeeded you.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Yeah, so yeah, Reverend uh Nicholas O'Rourke, who's uh at-large Kit City Council person, uh, was actually for years uh was our minister of worship and uh um music and worship at Living Water Church. Um and then he would eventually become the senior pastor of the congregation uh some years later. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. Love that brother.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 55:55

Yes, yes. Uh so do I. So do I preach for us.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

He's an amazing preacher. Yes, he is an amazing preacher.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:02

Yes, he is. Absolutely. A Baptist.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

He's a Baptist. Yeah, we should say that that that that that Nicole Rourke was ordained in the Baptist church. He told me. He's very clear about that.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:14

Very clear.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

He's very clear about it. He was ordained in the Baptist church, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:17

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

A Hopeful Vision For The Future

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:20

When you when you see the uh the uh uh be not weary and well doing that um, just just talk about when we look into the future, the work that you're doing, the state of the nation and the church, what do you see? What would you like to see? Um and and and what is the hope of for all of us maybe unfulfilled expectations that we would not live to see, but we we we are still striving to for that promised land.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

Yeah, I'm actually working on a book about this right now, uh, called Architects of a New America building this the sixth republic. And it it really goes to the fact that America's basically been five different republics at different times, and that we're actually in the point that we're trying to build the sixth right now, determine what the sixth is going to look like. And so part of it for me, um, when I go back to this one, I want to see the church reclaim its prophetic zeal. I want it to find its voice again, its moral voice and its moral power to speak truth to power and not be corrupted by party or money. Um, and so I think that that's one of the things that I really hope. That's my hope for this present moment that we'll recover that. Um, I think the second thing is we have to change government and change the structures and the system of government so that it doesn't work just for the corporations and corporate leaders, but it actually works for everyday people, which I think is part of what the challenge is right now. It's so beholden to corporations and what some would say oligarchs, um, that it doesn't know how to care for everyday people. And somehow or another, caring for everyday people becomes all those people instead of the fact that those are citizens who are worthy of dignity and respect. I would like us to see our government see the dignity of every human being. Not just uh white human beings or white male human beings in particular, but the dignity of every human being, including immigrants that have come into this country as well. I want them to see that, right? The Bible says that cattle in a thousand hills belong to the Lord. And I remember Dr. Tatum used to say all the time, and she said the hills belong to the Lord too. And if the hills belong to the Lord, then this is a space for all God's children, right? So how do we see every human being as a child of God in being able to do that? And then I think that the manifestation of that comes in policy decisions that happen at both the local, the state, and the federal level, where we can actually see that um uh that as a as a result of human dignity, everyone has a place to live that they can afford. So we can get rid of homelessness. Um that every child and every adult that needs it has access and guaranteed to have health care that they need.

unknown 59:21

Right?

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Healthcare should be a right. Jesus gave away, you know, healed people for free. Why can't we do that? I mean, we could do it if we realign our federal budget to make it happen, right? Yeah. Um, and then the third thing is I think that one of the most important things for our community to be able to grow and thrive is access to education. How many lawyers, doctors, engineers, uh, social workers, teachers are not able to live out their vocation because they don't have the financial resources to get the education that they need? So, how is it that we begin to provide education for everybody from birth all the way up through graduate school that's minimal cost, and so that they can become the best that God created them to be. Um, and so we need to do work at that. That's a manifestation for me of what government looks like when it cares about human beings and it puts human beings before corporations, um, and it puts human beings before oligarchs and it puts human beings before autocrats. And it says that the role of government is to ultimately care for its people and not so that everybody else can make a whole lot more money off of it. I'm I'm reminded um Jesus talks about um, you know, consider the lilies of the field and how beautiful they are, and that they don't want for anything. How much more is God wanting the same for us so that these things are taken care of? And God's arm to be able to do that ought to be government that's making sure that everybody has what they need so that they can live a flourishing, thriving life and be productive in helping to build community at large.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:00:58

Thank you. Um finally, or or maybe next to finally.

Advice For Young Pastors

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:01:06

What what advice would you give to young pastors today? Yeah. And uh in terms of where we are there role models were not ours, or leave not mine, you're you're kind of in between that. Um but um and and the the culture is is so absorbing in terms of values and and and even how they how they view church, how they uh view um um the s the the social dimensions of ministry, the social gospel, social justice. Um what what would you what would you say to them um that might that might be helpful in their in their pastoral journey, but also in their journey to be faithful to God's call to social justice.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:05

Yeah, I um I would say courage and tenacity. Um I would say have big imagination and try things. Um I think the the black church of the civil rights era will not be able to carry us through this next era. And so they will need to create new or they will need to build new from the congregations that they're living in. They will need to listen. I think one of the biggest things they have to do is listen, listen to the people and hear their cries. You know, I'm reminded, um, you know, the Bible talks about um with the Exodus story that God heard the cries of the people.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:02:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

As God's representative, as God's pastor, what are the people crying for?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:02:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

And then how are you going to address that? Um, and so listening is a very big part. I think sometimes we get so caught up in the preaching that we forget that before we can preach, we got to listen and hear what folk are saying. And then um, the other thing is like we have to support each other. And there's one thing that I think um is critical is like, how are we supporting each other across the line? We're not in competition with one another. We should not be in competition. We should be finding ways to support each other to grow um and to become more powerful. Any one success is all of our success. Um, and so how do we do that? How do we link arms? How are we wrestling with one another in a way that helps make us sharper? The Bible says iron sharpens iron. So how are we getting more sharp in the days ahead?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:03:41

Yes, yes.

Final Blessing And Subscribe

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:03:43

Well, this has been a very rich conversation. Thank you. Um thank thank you for being here and and sharing and challenging and challenging uh us in terms of ministry. Um, we've been having this conversation with Bishop Dwayne Royster. Um and we're grateful to him. And if you this conversation has been of value to you and your ministry, we hope that you will uh subscribe to the Ministry Exchange so that you will not miss any uh episodes. Uh thank you for being a part of us, and thank you again for being with us and may the Lord bless you.