Ep. 25 - Preaching Hope When You're Running on Empty | Rev. Dr. Wayne E. Croft, Sr.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this uh second season of the Ministry Exchange. Uh it is a podcast designed to help equip pastors and ministers and leaders of the church with uh dialogue and conversation with some of uh the leading uh voices in the the black church, in in the church today, but specifically in the black church. And uh we're grateful uh that you join us and that you support us. And we're especially uh grateful uh today to have on our podcast uh Reverend Dr. Wayne E. Croft Sr. Uh and I'm gonna say a few things about him that he already knows, he hears it all the time, but uh just uh uh such an impressive um reservoir uh resume of um of ministry achievements and and works, and we need to know that he is uh one of our nation's leading scholars of African American preaching, worship, uh, and black history. Also, uh he presently serves as the Jeremiah A. Wright Senior Professor of Homiletics and Liturgics in African American Studies at uh United Lutheran Seminary here in Philadelphia. Uh he has served more than 30 years in pastoral ministry, uh, first at the uh Church of the Redeemer Baptist Church in North Philadelphia. South. In South Philadelphia, thank you. And then most recently at the St. Paul's Baptist Church in uh Westchester. Um he is also an author of many books that uh certainly recommend that you uh that you purchase and read for your library, including uh uh the uh history of the Black Baptist Church, uh subtitled I Don't Feel No Ways Tired. And I'm gonna ask him about uh that title and uh and of course what it means for us. Also, the motif of hope in African American Preaching, uh Pretty Poison and Unexpected Calls to Unexpected Places. He is a former president of the NAACP of Westchester, founder of the Redeemer Renaissance Community Development Corporation. He is a nationally known, respected teacher, preacher, mentor uh to so many uh students, ministers, uh, aspiring students, senior pastors like myself. And um he is also a graduate of Trinity College, uh, and uh received uh Master Divinity from Palmer's Theological Seminary and uh several degrees from Princeton, including uh Master of Theology, uh Doctor of Ministry, and a PhD, and also an honorary degree from um Villanova. Uh I was a member of Alpha Chi Alpha Phi Alpha Phi Alpha Sorry. I don't I don't uh pardon me for that. Getting that all getting that all tangled up. Um and the father of two? Three. Three, yeah, right? Uh a Mohaus man?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yes, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 4:30

A Spelman graduate, yeah, and uh and North Carolina Central. North Carolina Central, HBCU's, right? And and so we're we're delighted to have you, Dr. Cross, Croft, with us today. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yes,

Growing Up Baptist In West Philly

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 4:45

absolutely, absolutely. Let's let's um uh you know begin talking about um uh your background in ministry. Um Philadelphian by birth. Yeah, and and just just how that happened um influences in your in your life as you um uh grew into young adulthood, manhood, um and heard the call of God uh upon your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, so I'm um West Philadelphia, born and raised on a playground where I spent most of my days. Um West Philadelphia. My uh my parents were both uh deacon and deaconess in the Baptist Church. And so I grew up and nurtured in the Baptist Church at the Enon Chapel Baptist Church in Philadelphia, 542628 Samsung Street, Philadelphia PA 19139, GR2, GR66161. Um and the founding pastor was uh the Reverend Roy Mathis Madri, um, who had a great influence on my life. Um my father, as I said, was a deacon um in the church, and I spent um my time in church sitting in on the front row on his lap um listening to Pastor Madgri preach. Um I was with my father so much on the front row that people didn't know who my mother was because I spent so much time with him sitting in church and rather than sitting with my mom sitting with him. And so um I eventually uh became a junior deacon um and um received my call at an early age. I received my call at 11 and preached my what was then called a trial sermon at the age of 12. Um and I often tell people we believe somewhere around that time that's when Jesus' um ministry uh of preaching started happening as they found them in the temple. Um and so um the black Baptist Church had um a great influence on my life because of the nurturing of my parents um in the church. Um went to John, went to uh Pepper, George George Pepper Middle School, um, and then attended John Bartram um for high school. Um I ended up serving um in the army um and also leaving to go to college. And um that started my path on um from college um into having a strong design. I was not a great student um but uh in in high school, but by the time I got to college, um I became serious about about education probably in my last year of college. Um I went to college on a um basketball scholarship. Oh, really? Um and um was a junior college all-American. Um don't let the hype fool you. Uh and and enjoyed my college experience. Um, but at the same time, I was I was battling with the still, even though called to preach at the age of 11 and preach my initial sermon at the age of 12, um, I was still battling on where did I want to go in ministry and eventually ended up um pastoring my first church in South Philadelphia, the Church of the Redeemer Baptists. Right, yeah, right, right, right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 8:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, if it so if you had to add some other voices in terms of influence. Yeah. Um, you know, I was always say when we stand in the pulpit, there are other voices that are speaking to us, other than the voice of God speaking to us because they've poured into us over the years, and then maybe some of them didn't even know us.

A Mentor Teaches Extemporaneous Preaching

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 9:05

We we knew them and knew of them. Um it's it's interesting how this this pastor of your of your church, um, not uh probably not a well-known church. Right, right. Not a well-known pastor, right, but had such an impact. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Um I think because he intentionally there were other associate ministers, but he intentionally took me under his wing. And so at the age of 12, um, you can imagine um that I was getting numerous engagements to preach because people wanted to hear this boy preacher. Um but he took me under his wing and um I would travel with him when he went to preach, you know, personally in his car. I would spend um some weeks during the summer at his house. Um he was into fishing, would take me fishing with him. Um I would sit in his car and I would remember, I could remember just hearing him mumbling, you know, while he's driving. And I was always wondering, what is what is he saying? What is he doing? And he was actually going over his sermon, you know. And so it was through him that I learned to preach extemporaneously. Um he never preached with a manuscript, um, but he always preached extemporaneously, and that's the only way I knew to preach. So when I preach my trial sermon from the book of Revelation, chapter one, verse three, the time is at hand. I preach extemporaneously. Um so he had a great influence on me. And like you said, he wasn't well known, wasn't a national um preacher, um, nationally known preacher, but um, but had had a great influence on my life. Um and um he was the first one I heard speak about Gardner Calvin Taylor. Um and so um I started reading whatever sermons or however I could hear Dr. Taylor during that time and age and ministry. Yeah, yeah. But he wasn't um he he wasn't he wasn't uh, as I said, nationally known, but um, but he took me under his wing and um helped me to understand preaching. He also emphasized the need for me going to seminary, even though he was not seminary trained. Um he went to, I believe, Manor Bible Institute, but he uh he actually tried to get me at the time, and I'm glad I didn't go for personal reasons to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which would have been for me too conservative at that time. But um he really emphasized the need for education, and so he he influenced me and motivated me to go to seminary. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 11:46

And and what about that um the way the black church embraces uh young preachers, especially at that age, but even even I mean it's like um a celebration of what God has done in in the life. And they, you know, uh, you know, there's there's a of course a lot of uh criticism of the black church that's uh you know that we know about, and but but there's some fundamental uh uh uh influences that that we have from them and that that nurturing uh trusting that that God did call us. I mean they're they're saying we believe you, yeah, and we're behind you, and that that pushes even at age 12.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah, that's yeah, most of our affirmation comes from people who are in the black church. Yes, you know, who will tell you, you know, I I I saw something on you. You got a head like a preacher, yeah. Or or or something.

Called At 11 And The Church Affirms

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Um for me, it was being a junior deacon and praying, and them saying to me, you know, there's an anointing on your life. It it really started for me um at my birth. Um I've told this this story on on another um um podcast or interview um of how when I was born, um, they brought me to my mother, and um, and I had these bandages on both of my hands. And they were they were they were bleeding. My hands were bleeding, and they brought me to my mother, and my mother was shocked and started crying, saying, What's wrong with my baby? And the doctor came in and said, We didn't want you to see him right now. We were trying to figure out what's going on. But um, I had these wounds in both of my hands. Um, and I try to tell, you know, I tell people I was not the reincarnation of Jesus Christ with wounds in my hands. Um, but the doctor said to my mother, it's a sign that something, there's something special about your son. The doctor said the doctor said this. And my mother never told me that story until I announced to her and um told her that I had um felt that God was calling me into the ministry. And that's when she told me the story. And she said, The reason I did not tell you that story is I did not want to put any pressure on you. She said, But I knew from your birth that the Lord had called you into the ministry. Yeah. And so at 11 years old, I got up one morning, um, went to church, and after church, I asked if I could speak to her, to my mother, and I said, The Lord called me to preach. And she just started shouting and, you know, praising God and saying, you know, I already knew it. I knew the Lord had his hands on you.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 14:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And then um she said, you know, you have to let Pastor Madry know. And so when I told him, without hesitation, you know, without any reluctance, no doubt, no skepticism, he said, the first thing we need to do is get you in Bible school. And so at 12 years old, I was attending the Gospel Crusades Bible School. I was going to regular school, you know, uh, elementary school, and going to Bible school at the same time. And of course, I was the only kid, you know, in class learning all the doctrines of the Bible.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long did Pastor Madre live to see uh what God has has been doing in your life?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Is it like Yeah, he lived through my pastorate at the Church of Redeemer, which was close to 20 years, and he lived up until my first Sunday at St. Paul's in Westchester.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:27

That's all.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah. And I was at his bedside um that Saturday before I was supposed to preach my first sermon at St. Paul's, and he died probably five days later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so he um I remember, and I'll never forget this, one of the greatest honors he gave me was to preach his 40th pastoral anniversary banquet. And I remember um standing in the hallway, and I could see him at a distance, and he was just looking at me with such admiration that just just just overwhelmed me emotionally. Um, but I could see in his eyes just how proud he was. And I don't know to this day if he knows how much of an influence he had on my life. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 16:16

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But the the other voices, uh, Gardener Sea Taylor, uh what what other what other voice did did you did you go to Hampton in those early years at all?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Or I did not. I did not. I had not been to Hampton. He was he was not um a part of any of the conventions, so I pretty much learned in the local back um Black Baptist church. Um, but I I I loved preaching so much, you know, that I sought out other voices. Yeah. Um, and so um I would run home to hear, after church, to hear the Bethany hour to listen to William Augustus Jones. Yes, yes. Loved his presence, loved his voice, loved his theological analysis of a text. Yes. Um he had a great influence on me as far as talking about presence and posture in the pulpit. Um you you know, you know, he was a flat-footed preacher, you know, um, with a with a strong baritone voice, you know, that you know, it was almost like you could hear God speaking. Yeah, right. Um but he had a great influence. Another one preacher that had a great influence was H. Beecher Hicks Jr., who surprisingly, you know, um was a great influence because he was, you know, a manuscript preacher and I was not.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 17:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

But I enjoyed the way he wrestled with a text theologically and the history behind the text that he would give. Um I I enjoyed hearing him. Um I enjoyed the Afrocentric emphasis of Jeremiah Wright, right? Um, Jr. Um and his preaching. Um there were a number of voices, you know, that had a a great impact um on me that that that I listened to.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 18:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah and heard. Going from um 12 years old growing up um accepting the call to ministry and and sc and school and how pastor it intersects with that for you. Um you know, when you were 12 or 15 or 20, did you imagine that uh okay, uh I'd like to be a writer, author, you know, uh with interest in in the black church. I'd like to get a PhD, uh you know, just just how um did the call also to the classroom uh come about? And and and how were you able to uh to wear

Bridging The Pulpit And Academy

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 19:05

the two? Um because I think it's it's it's been a great model for for a lot of us in terms of of uh how the pulpit and the classroom are not contradictions of each other, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I I saw a a gap between the pulpit and the academy. Um I also had professors who taught, you know, in the academy, but was not strongly a part of the church. Absolutely. And I wanted to bridge that gap. I wanted to, I wanted to live in Athens and Jerusalem. I wanted to be in the church and the academy. Yeah you know, um, I felt that if I was going to teach an academy, I wanted students to be able and specifically teach homiletics or preaching. I wanted students to be able to not only have theory and practice but also practice, that they could hear me sit in here and listen to me teach about preaching, but then they can come to a place and hear me do what I was what I was teaching. And so that became important to me. The other thing was I didn't want to get stuck in the pulpit. I I went and got as many degrees as I could because whatever uh area God called me to, I would be, I would be qualified for it. So if it was chaplaincy, it was parachurch organization, it was something outside the pulpit, I had the credentials. But I did not want to get stuck. I watched so many pastors during my early age of preaching die in the pulpit because they didn't have anything else to do. And so they could not retire. Not so much that they could not retire because they did not have retirement benefits, but there was nothing else for them to do. And so I wanted to be able to have options, you know, that if it was just preaching or pastoring that I was doing, fine, but if God called me to do something else, I would be qualified and have the credentials to do it. And so um schooling became very um um important to me to be able to have that flexibility. Um, but again, I also wanted to bridge that gap between the church and the academy. And I love, I love living in Athens and in Jerusalem at the same time. Yeah, yeah. I I love it. Um because it for me, the pulpit and the academy is not a dichotomy. Um they're both our ministries to me. Oftentimes people ask, how do I balance you know the two? Or how did I balance the two? Um, I didn't see it as a balancing act, you know. Um there were times when the church was a priority and needed to be a priority. There were times that the academy was a priority and needed to be a priority. I just had to keep my ear. to the to the ground and know which one needed the most time at the time in which I was in. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 22:06

How how does the church and academy accept that? You know, because for a long time in seminaries I know um they they didn't want professors pastoring. Yeah. You know, and that that has been an issue in some of our seminaries. And then on the other part, how does the church accept the pastor in the classroom? You know, what what did that look like and and how or has it been a maybe not an issue at all?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

It it has not been an issue. I think the two seminaries that I taught at um and teach at um first was Palmer Theological Seminary and then United Lutheran Seminary, they were at the time looking for pastor scholars that was um you know both in the church and the academy. So it never became an issue. As far as the church I never made it an issue. I made sure that you know if I'm driving on my way to the seminary I'm calling people who are in the hospital. I'm making sure that I'm doing my pastoral work. And so my pastoral work never suffered because I was in the in the academy as well. And so the church was able to accept the fact that I was in the academy at the same time while I was pastoring. Now today it's not really an issue because most churches can't a lot of churches can't afford pastors full time and so pastors have to be bivocational. So the opportunity to teach and to pastor is probably even more acceptable now than it was when I started.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 23:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

And and bringing the pastoral um the heart of the pastor in the classroom helps the students who will eventually become pastors of our churches too correct correct right and it gives them a model yeah you know it gives them a model on how to um be in the academy um and be in the church at the same time um because and and it's it's really um more expected and accepted among black students because black students when they come to seminary most of them are already preaching or in the church you know the the thing is that you know we're told when we go to seminary you know you know keep your fire don't leave don't don't don't don't lose your fire don't lose your burning for your learning you know and I think that being in both allows you to um wed the two together both your learning and your burning um um at the same time yeah yeah and helps the students legitimize the two that means that this is okay it's okay to be in the club in the classroom. Yes because some sometimes there's a little pushback uh I think you know that that if you go to school you know you're gonna go to school and and uh they're gonna take your Jesus right yeah yeah yeah there's been a little thread in the in uh yeah uh in our in our culture for and and I guess in white culture as well it's uh yeah kind of anti-intellectualism uh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I agree I agree yeah yeah the the the the the writing I mean um uh uh I don't feel no ways tired uh and yeah I know what comes to my mind in terms of of of being a certain age and no knowing who sang that everything is yeah how did how did that how the the interest in the black church I I think sometimes that um and and you know I have a high regard for for for for the AME church and and all but I think sometimes there's this sense that the Baptist church has not been at the forefront of protest from

Why The Black Baptist Church Endures

SPEAKER_00 26:10

the beginning you know um and because we may not be as old as a Mother Bethel for instance but there's been that just be because we're autonomous right and and don't have the same structure it seems like uh even during this this um semi-quincentennial celebration the the black Baptist church is not always given the credit for being there yeah and and having the autonomous autonomy and and looking at the civil rights movement where most of uh uh the the leaders were bat Baptist pastors are freer you know yeah than other denominations that have that structure to to yeah uh yeah yeah yeah I I I don't feel no ways tired of course as you know James Cleveland and I thought about when he wrote that song what was going on in black culture or in the black experience um and there was so much going on that I took that title not so much for its spiritual um lyrics or um how he may have uh saw uh I don't feel no ways tired how he viewed it um as as the black church persevering or black people persevering through through the different um vicitudes or this difficulties of life um I saw it as there was so much going on with post-civil rights black panthers um just in black culture black America that we have a way and the Black Baptist church has a way of persevering through all of those difficulties. I mean you think about what we've come through you know enslavement discrimination Jim Crow racism all of these things that you know are still very much even present today um we are people who who who though tired never get tired you know and continue to persevere and that's how I saw the Black Baptist church like you said it may not have the long tenure of an AME church but it's been around so long and and it has changed the lives of people and continues to change the life I believe that the black church the black Baptist church and the black church is still um still is still very much relevant. Absolutely um even today we could talk about people talk about the decline and and attendance and all the things um but I think there's been a boost with with live streaming and people attending and we don't often take that into consideration we look at the pew as um and not as much as the viewership of um of of of people looking at the church and so I think that the black church um is still very much relevant.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 29:16

Yeah yeah yeah this episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner Terry Funeral Home Incorporated for over 85 years they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion and consistency. Under the leadership of Gregory T. Burrell Terry Funeral Home has become a trusted name offering guidance and support when it's needed the most whether you're facing the difficult task of planning ahead or navigating the grief of a recent loss Terry Funeral Home provides the kind of support that eases the burden with dignity clarity and compassion when families need it the most to find out how they can serve your family with care and confidence visit Terry FuneralHome dot com and thank you. Yeah yeah it also it's it's I think it speaks to uh songs like I don't we we tend to think that m a lot of the gospel music of that time was escapism you know and and in fact or otherworldly yes yes but there there was m message there were messages of of protests and you know uh that we miss sometimes um because we look at some of the other protest songs that were more uh kind of in your face and obviously protest but I mean just the the the the the Roberta Martin type uh James Kusman type and on um the songs were really historical testimonies of what was going on at the time yeah uh in in the world and in the yeah black community.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Yeah yeah and and they helped us to survive um they gave us a reason to hold on um and like you said some of it may have been otherworldly but a lot of it was this worldly yeah you know I don't feel no ways tired was not talking about getting to heaven it was talking about surviving while on earth yeah um and there were there were a number a a number of of songs you know um that specifically James Cleveland um really helped us persevere through um the difficulties of life um you know when he talks about peace be still yeah you know um and and and other songs they they they helped us survive um whatever it was that we were going through and not only um just this worldly or we think about what was happening in the world or in the culture in our culture but also what was happening personally to us right you know and and I think that um that what made those songs and even preaching then was that um it was it was both this worldly and otherworldly it was it was more it was however more communal than individual um it was more communal than individualism so so I think I I do think that that's what we've lost today that our sermons have become more individualistic than communal um so before we talked about um black people surviving we talked about the community yeah making it yeah now we're more talking about individuals surviving and not being concerned about your brother or sister but you getting through and however you need to get by or make it you know you do whatever you have to do but I think then the songs were more communal yeah it was more about the community making it right yeah and and preaching as well yeah so even when when they would use they would say I really were talking about we yeah because we we all saw ourselves in that yeah yeah and and the soul whatever the souls were singing we yeah we we were part of that chorus well I think I think um Charles Albert Tinley when he did um overcome he did we shall overcome you know um and he made it more communal and and you know civil rights picked it up um and and and took it but it was it was it was the community overcoming and not so much just the individual. Right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah great conversation but what um in in terms of preaching

Communal Gospel Songs And Communal Sermons

SPEAKER_00 34:10

being a prof a professor of homiletics um and what that has meant to the black community the black church to to us as black preachers um had you you always had an interest in in not this not just preaching but but teaching preaching teaching students I guess not how to preach but giving tools to make them make us more effective yeah preachers yeah and and and a passion that is a passion for you and yeah yeah I just I just I just love black preaching I I love the the call and a response I love the rhythm and the cadence the the passion behind um um black preaching um you know um we don't imitate we emulate you know um well sometimes we imitate um but um I just I just love it and um and and and it it birthed in me this passion you know for for how the black preacher has such an effect on those sitting in the pew you know um I marvel at that you know um of how um and and one of one of my great motifs is that of hope how the black preacher gives a people who are in despair hope to make it another day you know um you know I think it was um William Bobby McClain who said no matter and I'm paraphrasing no matter how dark the night no matter how gloomy the day no matter what the text is there's always a but or nevertheless in black preaching. So it don't matter how bad it looks you know you can be taking the text from Tamar or or Jeff that in the in the in the in the killing of his daughter or or or Dinah one of those texts but there's always a but or nevertheless there's hope somewhere in there and and and and that's true. Even if we're in the Old Testament and we got to get to the cross you know we're gonna get there we're gonna give people some kind of hope that they can make it to the next day they can hold on until Jesus comes back they can hold on until we get to heaven and I marveled that the how the black preacher can do that you know to a people who are oppressed and marginalized be able to give that community hope to continue to strive knowing there's a bright side somewhere. Don't you rest until you find it there's a bright side somewhere and that's what black preaching does. And so I loved I love to teach not only you know the the the hermeneutics or how to interpret a text um do form criticism how to establish a pericope do redaction criticism teaching students all of those things um narrative reader response criticism but then showing them how a black preacher employs all of that and and sometimes you can't even tell that they've done all that work you know but but but you can see the hope that they're getting out of that text and be able to preach that text and to give the people the hope that they need to make it another day. Yeah I marvel at how that how how a black preacher does that. Yeah yeah and and with different styles with different styles so many such a variety of styles uh that people that people embrace I mean like uh and once they kind of catch your style yeah they go go with you yeah right yeah yeah yeah yeah because they they they they have faith that you're gonna get them there you're gonna you're gonna get them there you're gonna get them to the place where they can see there's a bright side somewhere you're gonna get them to the place where they can see there's hope you're gonna get them to the place where they don't feel no ways tired that they can make it uh you know another day um and so there's this I I think that the black church and the black pew has this appreciation for the black preacher just for that that they're able to give them this hope you know in the midst of despair you know in the midst of discomfort

Teaching Hope As A Core Motif

SPEAKER_00 38:35

in the midst of depression you know yeah yeah yeah talk talk about then um you know preach preaching through pain through through the preacher's pain yeah yeah and a lot and ministering to people even in the midst of your need to be ministered to yeah it's yeah because I think sometimes we um we we see ministers as uh if not perfect we see them as not totally human you know they're yeah um and and and don't understand the human God's intent was that that humans preach to humans uh dying dying person preaching to dying persons yeah so you were you were at at Hampton and when I lectured I was and um one of my lectures was preaching with a lamp yes you know um how do you preach when you're the one in pain uh how do you preach when you're hurting um sometimes um we have to we have to preach to ourselves what we've been preaching to everyone else um everything we told everybody else what they were going when they were going through what they needed to do and the scriptures we were quoting to them we now need to repeat and recite to ourselves um I I don't I'm very transparent about the fact that you know I suffer um with depression um and it has at times paralyzed and crippled me um to the point that not even wanting to um get out of bed um and sometimes that's even on a Sunday morning um has been on a Sunday morning when I've had to preach um you know someone says since you like talking to intelligent people talk to yourself you know so um I have to talk to myself um and and you know as you know as David says encourage myself in the Lord um it's not easy um I think that preachers need to know their rhythm um there are times when I know that season of depression when it gets dark earlier and um and stays dark later that I know that that's my rhythm and my season um my toughest season um of of dealing with depression and um there are certain things that I implement um I make sure that I schedule time to just have fun for myself to enjoy the things I like to do because I know that it's coming you know I know that the pain of depression is getting ready to hit I know I'm not gonna feel like getting out of bed and so there are certain things that I schedule for myself whether it's binging on Netflix movies or going to the movies or whatever it is that I need to do maybe exercising more to be able to get through that period of depression. And I know that you know sometimes people say it's rough you know but you hear you hear you you hear people they say that you shouldn't do this but you hear preachers say if I could just make it to the pulpit you know sometimes that's good and sometimes that bad it's bad. It's bad when we make it to the pulpit and we bleed on the people. Yes um it's good when we make it to the people to the pulpit and we're preaching not only to the people but we're preaching to ourselves and we're encouraging ourselves through our own sermons.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 42:30

There's a the risk though being vulnerable to grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ and welcome to this second season of the Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson. We're grateful for this opportunity to have meaningful

Preaching Through Depression And Pain

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 42:50

conversation is it it takes courage to do that. Yeah yeah yeah and and you and and your that vulnerability at Hampton was was not just to a congregation I mean that was to the the the black church in America in America which was transformative though for uh uh and and a lot of I think me toos me too yeah you know yeah I I I'm sure you you remember um I read a letter that I had written and I read it at the beginning of the lecture yeah um I did not say it was me but I'm sure after a while people started thinking uh you know I wanna when there's this him talking but um I read that letter and even at half and and I was I was debating before I lectured whether I should read that letter or not.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

And the reason was because it would take me to a dark place. And even now Thinking about that moment in time, you know, it's heavy for me because I remember like it was yesterday, um, that I was at the point where you know I was I was very much suicidal at that point. Um and and I remember sitting down writing a letter, not wanting to live anymore, you know, and um and did I want to be that vulnerable in front of thousands of people, you know, but you know, the the the spirit said to me, it's gonna help somebody. Yeah, you know, that you're not the only one who is going through this or went through this, someone else is going through it right now. And so when I read it, um I had to, when I got to the end, I had to, I had to gather myself because it was almost as if it was it was yesterday that that that I wrote that letter to my chairman of deacons and chairman of trustees and a trusted friend of mine's. Um but um but that vulnerability freed me up, you know. Um it gave me the freedom to be okay with where I was at that time and where I am at certain times now, you know, I'm okay with it. But I'm okay with it because I've been I've been honest with myself about it. You know, um, you know, some people, you know, would say, you know, hey, you know, you, you know, as preachers, we shouldn't feel that way. We're preaching to people every time. Why don't you believe what you're preaching? And and and sometimes it's a it's a physical thing, you know, it's a chemical imbalance that you have that causes you to be depressed. That, you know, it's nothing about your spiritual life or how weak your faith is or anything like that. Um, we are human beings and we suffer just like everyone else suffering. We have pain like we feel pain like everyone else feels pain. Um but that's the that's that's the power behind preaching. Yes, yeah. That preaching actually has a way of preaching the gospel, actually has a way of pulling us out of that that that depression, um, those those moods, um, those bad moments. It has a way of doing it. And even though it may take some time, it it does get us there. For some it's overnights, for some it's a few days, but it does get us there. That that's the joy and the marvel of preaching. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 46:30

And I was there, the affirmation though, of the congregation, to, you know, affirming uh your feelings and affirming that vulnerability. Um and I'm not sure it it would happen in any other kind of setting. Yeah um or any kind of other kind of religious setting of of um uh other than the black church.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 46:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But uh I think I think giving others other ministers and uh pastors and people, you know, the this this notion that because we are Christians, we are I mean, even culturally, we are um uh you know if you pray, you know, you don't need any um uh professional help if you pray, you know, and and it it as and as Christians, if if we believe what we say, then we're not supposed to be going through certain things. And obviously that's yeah, that's false. It has hurt us as a people. Yeah. And and hurt our young people as well, because Yeah, and have sent many to the grave. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Um because of the lack of recognizing that we are we are human and we are frail. Yes, you know, um, and recognizing and and being vulnerable, you know, enough to free ourselves. Um you know, um preaching has a way of setting you free, you know. Um there have been many times that you know I've I've crawled to the pulpit, you know, not literally, but you know, figuratively, I've crawled to the pulpit um in pain and and preached to myself.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

And felt felt God's healing, you know, um, in that moment in time, um, and had to repeat the process the next Sunday. But it was preaching that got me through to the next day and to the next week. Yeah. You know, um, which is the power, you know, of the word of God. Right. You know. But, you know, like I said, you know, you you have to you have to preach to yourself and say to yourself what you've been saying to the people, right, you know, all of these years. Yeah. Yeah. And and and not only say it, but believe it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 49:13

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, continuing with pre- I I mean, I love preaching too. And uh I love to hear you talk about preaching and uh John Jasper.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 49:28

Um I I'm not sure that that preachers of this generation have a great appreciation or knowledge of the the whole tradition of of preaching, period, but black preaching in particular. And here is a name, umong other names of of persons that you have you have written on, other preachers that that that I know I know some of them. Um you know why why John Jasper, who who was he? Uh what does he say to to us as preachers today, and even to young preachers?

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah. You know, John Jasper, um, for me, you know, was a um celebrated preacher um back in his day. Yeah. But um when you read John Jasper's sermon and to know, you know, the time in which he lived, you know, he didn't, you know, he didn't have logos and all of these resources that we have as preachers today. But you read his sermons and and and and he's he's he's he's preaching extemporaneously, but you know, he's giving you the depth of a text. You know, he's giving you know when he talks about revelation and um uh and and and uh there's another sermon, and he starts giving all of these numbers of of things. Um uh he starts talking about heaven, and he paints this picture of heaven that makes you want to get there uh or go there, you know. Um his mind um was extraordinary. Um even though he was a literalist, um, you know, when he talked about the sundew move, you know, and he says, you know, it comes off of comes from um two of his members coming to him asking him that, you know, does the sun stand still and does the sun move? And you know, he reads Joshua, right? And you know, and he says, you know, that the sun stopped, you know, for Joshua to finish fighting the battle. And he says, if the sun stopped, that means the sun do move, you know. Makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, in Revelation, you know, it talks about John being, you know, being the angels on the four corners of the earth. And he says, you know, someone asks, is the earth round or square? He said, Well, if they're on the four corners, the earth must be square. You know, you know, so you know, people laughed at Jasper when he was saying, especially when he preached Sundu Moo, which he preached like 250 times. Um, they laughed at Jasper, but they were impressed of the way he thought through the text, you know, the way he came about the text. Um, you know, um Hatchett, um, William Hatcher, um, who who transcribed his sermons, you know, talks about, you know, him being in the pulpit, um, Jasper being in the pulpit and Hatcher being in the pew. And he says that, you know, as Jasper was preaching the sun do move, he said, I was sitting there laughing, you know, that this guy, you know, comes up with this interpretation. And remember, he's preaching this during an era of Darwinism or, you know, thought of Darwinism. Um, and he's talking about the sun do move. And Hatcher said, you know, Jasper then took a vote at the end of the sermon and said, How many of you believe the sun do move? And Hatcher said, he was, he preached that sermon so well, he said before he knew it, he looked up and his hand was raised saying he believed the sun, the sun do move, you know, because of Jasper's influence and and how much he believed what he was preaching. Right. That that Hatcher believed it as well.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 53:34

Yeah, yeah. And and I and we get stuck with the the his times and what he believed and not the impact of his of his life in ministry at a time when well like 18 what 80, 17, 8 18, 50. Oh I don't well it was after the Civil War. Right, right, right. But uh but again, what uh what black people needed at at the time you know, we don't think sometimes about um these these preachers who who were not trained as as we think of training today, but right they kept that hope alive and kept our people I mean the disappointment of of having been uh emancipated but still not free and then going through like uh America had had an opportunity to fix the problem and and uh

John Jasper And Forgotten Giants

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 54:35

punt it the ball.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 54:36

And and these black preachers like Jasper and unknown, unnamed preachers just kept our people uh we have survived because of the black church.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I I think of I think of preachers, you know, we we often talk about the the the John Jaspers, um the Richard Allen's, um, but I also think of the hope someone like Jerena Lee gave to women, yeah, you know, during that period in time. And and think how far back that was that, you know, um women weren't allowed to preach, but the hope that people like her, like a preacher like Rebecca or Jerena Lee or Zilfa Um and all of those um Sojourner Truth, think of the hope that, you know, we don't often think of the hope that they were giving at that time, even though it took a long time to be manifested, you know, and still, you know, um has not been fully manifested and accepted. Um think about the hope that they gave, you know, as well during that period in time, you know. Um but but yeah, Jasper, Jasper was definitely this one, and I I often wonder um during that period in time, uh Hatcher transcribed Jasper's sermons. But to be able to actually sit and listen to Jasper, because I often, you know, wondered about Jasper preaching as both, he was preaching as both a slave. He was, he was, he was, he had been a slave and he preached when he was you know free as well. But he doesn't talk about in any of his sermons about enslavement. Um you know, but but you had a you had a a white preacher transcribing his sermon, may have left all of that out, you know. But I would imagine that he was also giving hopes to those who still felt the effects of enslavement. Um that's just the type of preacher he was, you know, um that he addressed all kinds of concerns. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 56:43

What were some of the other preachers of of uh that time from say that from that time to the end of the century that you you could think of who who were also influential and and powerful in their day that we we don't recognize today, or we don't we don't know some of the names.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Yeah, Henry McNeil Turner. Yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 57:08

You know who was the who was the he was uh he was Amy Pastor of um Big Bethel in Atlanta who said you say that God was was black? Yeah that wasn't Turner, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:21

That was I think that might have been Turner.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 57:25

I th I think so. Yeah I mean that I mean that's radical for that that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

But I you know, I you know, I think about you know moving ahead of that time uh or moving further down that time. I I think of um you know someone we often talk about, Vernon Johns. Oh yes, you know, um and just how radical um he was. And he was trying to give that this worldly hope as well to people, um, and and uh to black people um during during a time when you know just before the civil rights movement, but but he's a name, you know, that you don't hear much about. He doesn't get the notoriety or the attention that um um he deserves. But I think of I think of Vernon Johns.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 58:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the pulpit that that King occupied and maybe helped prepare definitely prepared, yeah for what was gonna happen. Yeah. But uh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What what are you you you you're in the classroom um helping to shape the minds, hearts, uh ministries of young mostly young, some some sometimes not young, uh ministers today. What what are the challenges uh you see in the classroom with uh uh today's students? And then the other question would be what are you um what's it what advice would do you give to this j a generation of uh preachers who have different different uh cultural uh and religious role models than many of us had. And and that that to some extent the s a social justice, you you're you're a strong social justice preacher. Um do you see do you see the hope that uh that the black church um can can pivot if it needs to so that that becomes uh central again, or maybe the times demanded and we step up to the times.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Uh I think that um let me say two things. One, I think that this present administration forces us to be socially conscious. I also think that the millennial generation forced us to be socially conscious. I think that the millennial generation was probably the most socially conscious generation since the civil rights movement. Um with all that was happening, happening that brought about or catapulted the Black Lives Matters movement, the Me Too movement, and all of these other movements, that was pretty much the millennial generation. And I think that they, I don't want to say forced us, but they they caused us um to or called us to be more socially conscious

Social Justice Preaching And Pandemic Lessons

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

in our preaching. I think that the George Floyd incident also caused preachers who were not normally socially conscious to become socially conscious, that it forced them to do so. That that during that period in time of what was happening to young African-American men and and and and women, such as Brianna Taylor, um uh young people were coming to the church wanting to know what the black church and the black preacher have to say about this. Um now I think that this present administration is causing us to have to be socially conscious. And and I'm actually um really impressed with the students that I have now that I teach preaching to who incorporate um social justice into their preaching, um, which gives me hope for the future of preaching.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:01:55

Yes, yeah, yeah. Because I was gonna ask you about the future as you see the future of preaching, which we obviously don't know, but there's signs, I guess, that point to what that future may look like and God's um you know, uh Charles Booth used to say, uh I'm gonna keep preaching until preaching comes back. That you know that that is that is still the hope. Yeah. And will always be the hope. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

And I think, you know, there are times, you know, you you because it's not everyone, but you hear some preaching and you wonder what happened. Didn't they go to seminary, you know, but then you hear others um who, like I said, are very socially social conscious. And um and it gives hope to to the future of preaching. Um I even think there's a renaissance in of African American preaching um with um homiliticians, you know, recent retired homilitician Frank Thomas, and and offering a PhD and sacred rhetoric in African American preaching. Um, and now you have students going to get a PhD to study African American preaching. Um African American preaching is is a course now, you know, um, or you know, has become a course now, but also um has become a PhD program, you know, which says a lot about what the the the says about the the level, the power of such preaching, that it it's not only studied by those who do it, but it is being studied theoretically or in in the academy, um, which I think gives it hope in a future.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:03:54

Yeah, yeah. Especially going going back to even my seminary years when black preaching was not seen as a legitimate uh expression of preaching.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Well, it well you had you had black preachers who were questioning whether there was something called black preaching. I mean Martin Luther King Sr. was like there's no black, white preaching, there's just the preaching of the gospel.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:04:18

There's no black theology.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

Right, yeah, yeah. You're doing it, but yet you're saying there's no Yeah, but there's something different about it. Yes. There's something different about it. And I think that that difference is the hope that it offers of people who have been oppressed and marginalized. I think it's it's the engagement that comes with black preaching, which and what I mean by the call and response that both the pew and the pulpit is engaged in this moment. You know, I mean, you you can sit there and and and and people sing and and and not say anything, but you can't sit in a black church and a preacher preach in most black churches and the pew not say anything. You know, somebody's gonna say amen. Somebody's gonna say help of Lord. Somebody say you saying and preaching.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:05:07

We're gonna make them say so.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Get some help. Right. And we're graded. We know we're graded on on the risk by the response of the people. Exactly. You know, that that's where we get our grade from. Exactly. J.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:05:21

Paz Barber used to grade us. Um, you know, with first of all, preaching in front of him was like uh you preaching in front of God, you know, you're scared to death. And after after we preached, we've while we were students at Crowley would go back in his study and and he would grade us, you know. And one one of them was uh of course content.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:05:46

Content. But but the other was uh audience response is what he called it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:05:52

You know, yeah, yeah. And and the and the need for For that uh uh call and response in black preaching that gives it life and and congregation feeds on the preacher, preacher feeds on the congregation, and we uh we need that so much until when it's when it's not there, sometimes I would say, Well, I I get this is not gonna be a shouting sermon today, but and I want it to be, but it's not turning out to be. And I think a lot of times people are uh my members some have said, Well, that's big that's because we're we're listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

We're listening, right?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:06:34

Yeah, you know, thinking about what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

So but you know, the greatest the greatest challenge that we had with that call and response was during the pandemic. Oh my God. When we did not have call and response, it required us to be more substantive in our preaching. Um but you almost had to talk to yourself and say amen. Yeah, you know. Um but that was a challenge to black preaching. That was a challenge, you know, not to have that call and response, not to have the audience there talking back to you. But it removed a whole lot of fluff from sermons. Yes, you know, um, you had to you had to stick to the text and preach the text because you weren't getting no amens. You weren't getting them. You had to be sure of yourself that what you were saying was true and that it related to what the people um were experiencing, you know. So yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:07:22

That was a that was uh time. Yeah. I stood in that pulpit the first time the pandemic had just a little crew, yeah, you know, and mostly younger people. And uh I got nothing. You know, even the little crew I had, they they own the cell phones over here. I guess whatever they do with checking things and everything. I said, this is gonna be a uh it's gonna be a long day here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:47

But it said something about black preaching, yes, that it still stands. Yeah, and it's still effective, you know, even when we don't have that reaction from the crowd. Yeah, you know, it still gave people hope, you know, during a period, during a pandemic, during a period where, you know, um they were they were they were isolated. Yeah, you know, um, we were still giving them hope.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:08:11

Giving them hope through the pandemic. We we brought them through it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:08:15

We brought them through it. Yeah. And I think even people who had made up in their minds, maybe um this the live stream is okay for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:08:24

But it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:08:25

And and I I need to be in that sanctuary for for the what I can get there that I can't get. Yeah. Viewing. Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Croft, this has been uh a rich I I wanted to in the beginning talk about you you uh being at St. Paul's because I was at your I was at your installation and and and Dr. Booth preached for you in the morning. Yeah. And here you you uh a pastoring church that he was pastored, his first church, yeah. And that Amos Brown was in San Francisco pastored. Yeah and I I can remember when Amos Brown, Amos Brown had, he was he had just finished Crozier when I went there, but he was pastoring St. Paul and he had a a red Volkswagen, and when he left to go to uh he he he left there to go to Minneapolis. Yeah. And uh sold his Volkswagen to Booth.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:25

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:09:26

Yeah, and and uh in the old building. Yeah, the old building. And

Final Reflections And Closing Blessing

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:09:30

and then you went to that uh that pole pit. Um blessings on you and thank you. Uh we've been in conversation with uh Dr. Croft. Thank you so much for thank you, thank you uh agreeing to be a part of this this conversation. And uh to you, if you've enjoyed uh this uh presentation of Ministry Matters, um not Ministry Matters, mini the Ministry Exchange, that uh you will become one of our subscribers. Uh blessings upon you, thank you, and and hope to see you again soon.