Ep. 27 - Preaching Without the Cheat Code | Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant

What happens when the move you never planned becomes the assignment you were built for?

In this episode of The Ministry Exchange, Dr. Mapson sits down with Rev. Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant, Senior Pastor of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Stonecrest, Georgia, for a candid conversation about transition, leadership, legacy, culture, and the future of the Church.

Together they explore:

• Why Dr. Bryant’s move from Empowerment Temple AME Church to New Birth was “the best move” he never planned
• What it was like stepping into a historic pulpit, a grieving congregation, and a completely new church culture
• The difference between being a founder and being a successor
• Why leaving a ministry you started can reveal whether you built a platform or an institution
• How New Birth’s early challenges, including debt, governance, and rebuilding trust, shaped his leadership
• The voices that formed him as a preacher, pastor, and public leader
• Why Dr. Bryant believes preaching is becoming a dying art form when clips, social media, and AI replace study, reading, and sermon development
• How Morehouse shaped his understanding of voice, leadership, social justice, and public responsibility
• Why efforts like the Target Fast matter in a moment when faith, economics, corporate accountability, and civic engagement are deeply connected
• Why today’s Church must pair inspiration with information and create space for hard, honest, scriptural conversations

Whether you’re a pastor, leader, preacher, creative, entrepreneur, or someone navigating a major life transition, this conversation will challenge the way you think about calling, leadership, influence, and the assignments you never saw coming.

Transcript

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Welcome And Guest Introduction

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 0:00

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ, and welcome to this uh second season of the Ministry Exchange with Dr. Mapson. Uh, this podcast is designed to help equip pastors and ministers and uh and leaders of the church uh for more effective ministry uh by having conversation and discussion with some of the leading voices and most influential voices uh in the black church today. And uh certainly today is no exception as we welcome to the podcast the uh senior pastor of the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Stonecrest, Georgia, Reverend Dr. Jamal Harrison. Bryant, yes, sir. It's a delight and privilege to have you. I must just say a few things about uh Reverend Bryant before we get into the discussion, um, because there's a lot to say that I think needs to be said. Um he is a former pastor of the Empowerment Temple AME Church in Baltimore. He is a nationally recognized preacher, pastor, activist, and organizer, former national youth and college director of the NAACP. I'm thinking about the NAA NAACP. There was a time when you didn't have to explain what that was. You know, it's the NAACP, but uh maybe for a newer generation, uh obviously one of the leading civil rights organizations uh in America. Um the it's the initials stands for uh National Association um Advancement of Colored People. Uh he's also the graduate of Morehouse College. Yes, sir. In Atlanta, school that uh I'm familiar with, uh, had theological training at Duke University, Oxford University. Um he's a leading national voice uh for social justice and economic and corporate accountability, the organizer of Target Fast, um holding um corporate America accountable in terms of social justice. Uh he's a father of four, um, and his two daughters just became members of uh Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority. Yes, yes, yes. One at Spelman and one at Hamptons. He is married to Dr. Carrie Turner Bryant. Um, and that's just scratching the surface. But we are delighted to have you with us today on this podcast.

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 2:59

I'm honored to be with you and uh grateful uh to be in your presence. Uh I appreciate your legacy of holding the standard of the black church uh and black preaching, which in uh my humble opinion is a dying art form. Uh and so uh thank you for being a Picasso at the pool kid. Well, thank you. Grateful

PK Roots And Hampton Memories

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 3:21

for you.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 3:21

Thank you. Thank you so much. Today's episode of the Ministry Exchange is supported by our silver partner, DPM Autos LLC, conveniently located just minutes from Philadelphia International Airport in Essington, Pennsylvania. Whether it's routine maintenance, diagnostics, or reliable automotive repairs, DPM Autos is committed to providing honest, customer-focused service that keeps you safely and confidently on the road. Learn more at dpmautos.com. Thank you. I gotta start with a uh we're both PKs, of course, and I gotta start with uh a dad story. Um course, uh Dr. Bryant's father has been a leading preacher, pastor in the Black Pulpit for many years. Um and of course, we used to go to Hampton every year, look forward to going to Hampton. You know, from the time we left Hampton, we were excited about the next year going to Hampton because we heard these great voices, uh, and one of them was um the Reverend John Bryant. Yeah and I can remember when uh I lectured at Hampton, scared to death, nervous, and uh and I ran into him in the in the back of the auditorium on the side before I went out, and he prayed with me.

Speaker 3 4:53

Oh yes. You know, yeah, that's him.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 4:56

Right.

Speaker 3 4:57

That's him.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 4:58

And and just kind of that that calm me in a way that's a blessing. Yes, yes, yes. Never forget that. Uh let's talk about um um, and I and I had the privilege of preaching for you in in Baltimore.

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 5:15

We were the better. I started uh an AME church uh in 2000, and uh one of the greatest honors of my life was having a Hampton preacher come preaching a high school auditorium. Nobody thought it was possible, but uh so the thank you for for humbling yourself to come be at a glorified storefront.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 5:37

Not at all.

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 5:38

No, we would have better than the richer because of it. We had uh you uh James Perkins.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 5:43

Yes.

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 5:44

Uh we had um uh from uh North Carolina, Dr. Turner, who used to teach at uh Duke.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 5:52

Yes.

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 5:53

Uh I'm trying to think because it was a Black History Month series. It was. And uh the late uh the senior Harold Carter Senior.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 6:01

Yes, yeah, yes, yeah. Never for never forget that. Yeah, it's something I remember um because I felt like, man, this is this is something great here. Yeah, you know, at uh in that building at that time, and uh never haven't forgotten it's been what 20 years five, 20 years, 20 years, 20 years.

From AME Structure To Baptist Reality

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 6:25

Um what is it, what is it like then um leaving the AME church and becoming a Baptist pastor?

Speaker 3 6:37

Let me tell you how much time we got in here. So uh for those of you who uh don't know, I'm a third generation AME preacher. Right. Uh my grandfather was a bishop in the AME church, uh, Bishop Harrison Bryant, whose name I share. Uh my dad, Bishop John Bryant, uh, was senior bishop of the AME church uh for many years. And uh people shrink wrapped me to just being three generations. I'm a fourth generation preacher. My great-grandfather was Baptist, was the state moderator for South Carolina, and uh he and my grandfather fell out. And my grandfather joined the AME church as an act of rebellion. The AMEs then sent him to Wilberforce. Oh uh, and then that's how we became AME.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 7:29

Is that so?

Dr. Jamal Harrison Bryant 7:30

Yes. So I'm I'm I'm back home in my roots. Yeah. Yeah, I'm back home in my roots. But I'll tell you a funny story. So I'm the founder of uh Empowerment Temple, and um to young preachers, let me say to you, being a founder and being a successor is two different things. As a founder, you just make announcements. You don't need no buy-in, you don't need you, you don't need to test the waters, you just get up and say, This is what we're doing next. Yeah, because you're here because of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got to New Birth. Uh, Newbirth is formerly pastored by your Bishop Eddie Long. And uh, Dr. Mapsom, I was there two weeks at New Birth, and they told me uh that the church was in debt facing foreclosure. I've been there two weeks. I'm AME. So I call an emergency church meeting. I've never been to a Baptist church meeting before. So I'm thinking it runs like an AME meeting.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 8:37

Oh no.

Speaker 3 8:38

No, no, no, no, no. So I could call the uh church meeting and uh explain to them we're about six months out from foreclosure. The county is gonna turn our church into the convention center that I have to do an emergency capital campaign. To that end, for those of you who are not a humanist, I've never had deacons before. So I've never had deacons and I've never been to a Baptist church meeting. And one of the deacons jumps up and says, He's lying. Nothing in me says he's talking about me. Because I've never had an uprising in a church that I started, and uh another deacon starts running towards the camera saying, Turn the stream off. He putting our business out in the street. So as a founder, this is oh yeah, this is your first this is my first church meeting. So as I leave Baltimore, right? All of these things that are flooding my mind. Uh and so I I think I'm at a disadvantage answering that question as a founder um because I didn't go through regular protocol. So I had a crash course on what it means to be Baptist through fire. Yeah. Uh so I had to call your friends like Walter Thomas and Dr. William Flippin. Yeah, you know, Flippin'. Oh, yeah, yeah, he's the godfather of Atlanta. He is. You can't get through Atlanta without Dr. Flippin'. I had to call it funny group. Yeah, Timothy Fleming and say, What must I do to be saved? Uh so it is uh a different kind of uh kind of walk because in the AME structure, you have a bishop and a presiding elder who are your tiers of accountability. Something comes in, goes off, then the bishop comes in to mediate and to manage. I don't have no bishop, Dr. Mapson. Right. And I I don't know if I'm getting voted out of this place. So they Dr. Flippin gave me the the the pastor star book. I had to read that to get to get my ground and and start going to the Baptist ministerial meeting on Mondays. Yeah. So I can figure out, but it's it it is night and day from what it is that I've known.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 11:20

Yeah, and and it, you know, that's that's interesting because we wouldn't necessarily think of new birth being it is Baptist in name, yes. You know, you would think it more uh if not ecumenical, kind of uh non-denominational, right?

Speaker 3 11:39

I remind people because people call it new birth and forget missionary baptism. So it it is independent in a lot of ways, but at its core is missionary baptists, and I want to add with a drum roll, and we are in the South, not South Philly, right? We are in Georgia, so the bearings of what that means are still uh carries it. So uh, Dr. Mapson, I still don't have any female deacons. Oh no, my front row of my church today is all male deacons. The second row of my church today is their wives. We are a missionary Baptist church, sir. In the South. Be not deceived. Yeah. In the South. In the South. In the South.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:34

Wow. That's man, that is that is remarkable. That is that is remarkable. In terms of the uh, I mean, catching any criticism for becoming a Baptist, you didn't have to deal with that.

Speaker 3 12:50

I I dealt with it more from AMEs.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 12:54

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Speaker 3 12:55

Not from Baptists. Um, so when I came, uh Pastor Craig Oliver at Elizabeth Baptist uh had a welcome breakfast for me for pastors in Atlanta. And 120 pastors came from around the city, from Jasper Williams to Paul Morton, uh, to everybody in between. Uh the AMEs on the other side, Dr. Mapson, treated me like LeBron leaving Cleveland for Miami. They wanted to burn my jersey and effigy.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:32

Wow.

Speaker 3 13:33

Uh that, you know, because I'm a son of the church. Uh so they they really saw it as a betrayal. Yeah. Uh that I was uh walking around.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:42

And maybe at some point a bishop rising through the earth. Yes, you know. Yes. That was the path, maybe.

Speaker 3 13:48

Yes, that was the path. But God had another plan.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:51

Another plan.

Speaker 3 13:52

Wherein we are glad.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 13:55

I'm glad to be where I am. Yes, yes. How long have you been there now?

Speaker 3 13:59

Six years.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 14:00

Oh, just six years, huh?

Speaker 3 14:01

Yeah. Wow. Six years. Going on seven. I came uh at the top of 2019. Yeah. Yeah. And uh so I was there for one year, literally. I was there one year, and then COVID happened. So I was like, my God, why has thou forsaken me? So I didn't I didn't know where I was or how I was gonna, I had no family in Atlanta. I didn't know anybody who was a member of the church. Uh, and so it was really an Abrahamic call to walk away from home and family and to really trust God in the arena of the unknown and to be able to do it without the blessing of the predecessor. He had died uh a 18 months before I came.

The Call To New Birth

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 14:59

I see.

Speaker 3 15:00

Yeah, so I didn't have anybody to wink and nod to the congregation, be like, he's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so to be able to navigate that space without calling to say, hey, can you tell Brother Jones to give me a break? Can you talk to Sister Lawson? Uh so it was uh a grieving congregation uh who was uh really trying to figure out who is this mashed man, uh, because I wasn't a son of the house, I wasn't Baptist. Um so you it was uh really a tangled dance for both pastor and people.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:42

Yeah. Do you see it maybe too as kind of uh the church needing a a fresh start, a new chapter, um a break from the past.

Speaker 2 15:56

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 15:57

It it's in in terms of your being called there, uh kind of an opportunity for a reset.

Speaker 3 16:05

Yeah, I think a reset for the church infamy. Um so there was another pastor who came after Bishop died, who was one of Bishop's spiritual sons, uh, who stayed for about 15 months and just resigned. And uh Bishop Neil Ellis, uh Mount Tabor Baptist in Nassau, Bahamas. Yeah, he asked me to just go preach there because he was over the search committee and needed to fill in Sundays until they got a pastor. So he asked me to preach there the fifth Sunday in August 2018 and uh said uh Jamal, don't think about it. Said this is uh whoever's going to this church gotta be married and they need to be Baptist. Okay. It wasn't nowhere on my mind because I'm born bred and dead AME. So nothing in my head said that this is a possibility. Our church, Dr. Mapson, holds uh almost 7,000. I get there on Sunday morning, and it may be 600. I sit in that chair and I heard God say, This can re be your church. I said, No, not me. I got three services I'm running in Baltimore, police outside directing traffic. No way in the world. I get out of uh church, go to the airport, I clear security. I remember it just like I'm looking at you. I clear security and my phone rings. It's Bishop John Bryant. He said, Man, you did a great job at Newbirth today. I said, Oh, thank you, Bishop. I said, uh, how'd you know I was there? Because I didn't tell him I was preaching. Oh, you didn't. He says, I'm in Ohio, my flight got delayed and you just popped up. He said, I don't even know how, I don't even follow Newbirth. So he said, I said, So he said, Did anybody talk to you about being the pastor? I said, No, sir. He said, Are you sure? I said, I'm positive. And uh two weeks later, some deacons came to Baltimore. True story, and said, uh, we have 156 candidates. What? 156, Dr. Mapson. And uh this week we're interviewing our final four. But we think you need to be in it. So I wasn't even in the process and they interjected me uh into it. And uh I I am still amazed. I'm still amazed. Um, but I uh it is uh the best move that I could have never planned.

Leaving Empowerment And Building Institutions

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 19:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:18

No, it's been great.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 19:19

Yeah, wow, wow. What what was it like then uh empowerment? What what happened to empowerment in terms of it?

Speaker 3 19:32

It is uh it was a schizophrenic bipolar experience. I'm rejoicing about new beginnings, and I'm frightened because I didn't have a model on how do you leave what you started. Um and all the more in hindsight, my transition was very poor because I only was able to give them a two-week notice. Um and then because we're AME, I wasn't able to appoint my successor. The bishop just assigned somebody, uh, and so I was not uh influential in that decision. Um and that transitioned pastor helped me not to replicate mistakes in Atlanta, and what I mean by that it was not until I left that I realized how much of the church was built on my personality and that I was not building an institution, and that's what I inherited at Newbirth, that so much of it was built on Bishop Long, yeah, that it it wasn't some institutional pillars that needed to be there, uh, and so uh watching Newbirth grieve, their former pastor, and watching the church I founded grieve at the same time uh was really humbling and it was centering for me on how do we build longevity in terms of ministry in the church.

Speaker 2 21:36

That's

Preaching Voices That Formed Him

Speaker 2 21:37

that's that's a great story. Great story.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 21:40

Talk about um the the voices that have shaped you um as as a preacher, as a man, yeah. And that you the voices you hear when you stand in the pulpit. What are the voices that you hear that kind of it have informed you from from early on.

Speaker 3 22:03

Yeah uh Charles Gilchrest Adams uh the Harvard Hooper uh bringing intellect to the charismatic uh the late uh Reverend Tyrone Kreider um who was the very first person who I heard bring pop culture to the pulpit uh Freddie Haynes uh who um really was able to bring anthropology to theology uh bishop john bryant my father who was able to bring clarity and be concise uh I've never heard my dad preach longer than 30 minutes uh uh I would um say uh bishop neil ellis uh out of the Bahamas uh to bring the tension of Mysterium tremendum you don't know where it's going but you know you're gonna arrive um I am the last student a part of the last class of Samuel DeWitt Proctor at Duke Divinity School uh so interwolf weaving what it means to be a storyteller yes uh master oh yeah masters yeah to be uh a griot uh in present culture I think those uh would be uh some of the most influential voices and uh I'd have to add uh Bishop Noah Jones yeah that's that's uh a great list yeah yeah that is a great list a great list this episode of the Ministry Exchange is brought to you by our partner Terry Funeral Home Incorporated for over 85 years they've served families in the Philadelphia area with care, compassion and consistency.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 24:11

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Morehouse, Social Justice, And Sermon Craft

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 25:00

Yes um you know we of course we we were there different generations but there's there's this thread of the Moorhouse man uh traced back to Benjamin Mays. Yes sir and in terms of preachers just um how how did that shape shape you particularly in terms of this the the social justice because we wanna want to get into that too but yeah um you know we were just taught that that preaching is not just about personal salvation it's about social justice and you can't be a preacher if you don't if you're not engaged in social issues and prophetic preaching uh which is not throughout the black church by any means.

Speaker 3 25:56

Right I I came to a Moorhouse in nineteen eighty nine at that point to show you how time flies there was no website I had never visited the campus never seen it I only went there because Dr King went there and my my whole draw and drive was knowing that that's the blueprint I wanted to follow. And to have a class of twelve hundred young men who were the beneficiaries of one man's legacy. That uh you can tell a Morehouse man but you can't tell them much. And the Morehouse men teeter on confidence and arrogance.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 27:07

Yeah.

Speaker 3 27:08

Thin line yeah thin line uh from freshman week all the way in yeah uh and so all of us uh believe that uh we can make a difference we can make an impact and can do it through our voice yeah and that's that's a a powerful implication and a powerful indictment that your voice can change the world yeah just just just to sit with that yeah uh you know I say to uh young preachers the fact that Dr. King never pastored more than 300 people that's right never had the biggest church in town whether in Montgomery or Atlanta uh but was able to shift an entire nation um without a mega platform right but had a mega voice yeah uh and so it really uh gives a charge to black preaching um that the stage is not your confinement uh it is um really the ver reverberation of what it is that you have to say uh and where it is that we are now uh Dr. Mapson is preaching is a dying art form uh my uncle is uh former football coach in Baltimore and he said to me at Thanksgiving a couple of years ago he said these are the worst football players I've seen in 50 years I said Uncle Charles why he said because these football players learned it through watching video games so they come out to the field and want to put on a jersey but they don't want to run you you had you have a generation of preachers who are learning preaching through a two-minute reel on Instagram so they're getting the highlight footage without really knowing the real tenor. When we left Hampton we left Hampton with a case of cassette tapes. Yes right so with that case of cassette tapes I'm gonna memorize that sermon I know when somebody coughing in the back yeah I know I know when the deacon's gonna say say it rev up front I know when the preacher is breathing yeah uh and you don't see that kind of commitment to the art of sermon development as much as it is the clothes. Yeah. And so I think that um uh the the real struggling of that text uh of a contemporary is we're hearing a lot of the same thing. Turn to your neighbor won't he do it ain't he all right shake their hand but I'm not hearing what is the argument what is the tension I'm not hearing the preacher fight through the text or question it or or raise objection or to see uh what Isaac Clark would say what what is the critical question of that text and I think that uh it's got to be revived and resuscitated because we've put internet over intelligence uh and preaching is becoming anti-intellectual because it's not causing us to think I tell the members of our church in Atlanta you should get mad with me once a quarter if you agree with all my sermons I ain't preaching. Yeah the gospel in and to itself has got to be offensive. Yeah uh so if I have not offended you in the last three months then I got to come back and try to recalibrate what I'm saying and how it is that we're delivering it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 30:58

Yeah yeah yeah my dad used to say don't come to church and leave your mind at home wee that's good but the but the critical thinking the other other other part of that for me is the the use of words that that that preachers of that era that that shaped us I'm I I marvel even at Hampton in my early years going there how how they put words together and the power of words.

Speaker 3 31:27

It was poetry yes it was poetry and let me add they could recite poems. Yes so it was right it was the Harlem Renaissance found itself shrink wrapped into the throat of a black vessel. Yeah so when we had uh the likes of uh Dr. Gardner Calvin Taylor uh you know I mean who was uh a walking lexicon yeah uh now you and I could travel the country and go to five night revivals and we ain't writing nothing down yeah we going to eat yeah yeah but I I think it's got to put us back and and it is the absence of reading uh and the greater danger is the entrance of AI right uh so the next generation is really gonna have to be intentional that preaching doesn't come with a cheat code yeah you're gonna have to sit with it and write it out and go back to the yellow legal pad don't don't put it all in your iPad right away but you you need to really fight through every word of it yeah yeah I say a preacher who won't read is worse than a preacher who can't read that's good yeah that's good manuscript or uh me yeah man I'm manuscript you may okay I'm manuscript I don't it is there yeah yeah I don't trust myself without it look anybody who pulls that Bible out their breast pocket my blood pressure goes up ain't no way in the world I got to have it all right there you have to hear somebody say that oh yeah no sir no sir the memory is great if my manuscript it flies out the window I'm going with it oh yeah no the choir gonna sing another A and a B till I can get it together no sir I'm a manuscript yeah yeah yeah was your dad want a manuscript or how how did you be my dad wrote his whole sermon out then on Saturday morning he will reduce it to an outline and then Sunday he go up there with the Bible is that so yeah to this day is that so my dad will get up and pull out his cell phone and read the Bible from his cell phone then put it back in his pocket I'm offended that he is he is more technologically

Target Fast And Reconnecting The Black Church

Speaker 3 34:10

savvy than I am yeah but no he uh he my mother was a uh manuscript preacher yes I remember yeah but my dad uh he just he free willy wow that's yeah well I'm I'm always glad to run into somebody who listen it takes one to no one shamedly I'm with you sir read everything on there too yeah no I I got to a church a couple of weeks ago and turned on my iPad it was two percent battery left I was like hey man I gotta sit in this office for a minute to charge this thing up ain't no way I can go out here with this but yeah no I'm a manuscript yeah yeah yeah that the talk about target well that let me frame it in um different organizations you know are doing social social justice things yeah ministry if you call it it seems to be a disconnect today between the black church and organizations that don't seem to value the the black church anymore yes and and and just how do you how do you see that um play out in terms of how we how we're able to then um to have one voice or or is it is it necessary to have one voice it is for black people yeah it is for black people it's necessary this is the very first time Dr. Mapson is the very first time in the history of modern black people where there's not a national preacher who is Baptist leading the charge the AMEs have always had the institution yeah the Baptists have always had the individual uh and I think that uh there is some things that are happening where we are not connected uh in that way uh you you were asking me about Target is uh they started the Target boycott in Minneapolis and I then carved out the Target fast which was supposed to be just 40 days the intention Dr. Mapson was I was trying to find a tributary to reintroduce the black church into social justice for this demographic. It's the largest demographic of black people in our history in America is our largest demographic of black people who don't go to church we're at 28% largest demographic of black people in our history in America that self-identify as atheists. We're at 8% uh and so in the last 25 years uh the black church has not been the focal point of social justice. Uh when black lives matter came along uh the black church was skittish around it uh because it was uh founded uh by two women uh and so the the black church was unsure on how to support something it didn't start uh and so from yeah yeah so from going from Trayvon Martin uh to George Floyd uh to Freddie Gray the black church has not been in the league yeah uh and so we've got to figure out uh how do we reinterject ourselves uh because you have a generation who thinks that we have gone mute uh and haven't said anything. Um so our denominations by and large and I'm speaking in generality of the black church sure our denominations have not said anything about immigration. We've not really put out a position on the Epstein files. We're not doing anything on a livable wage uh we've not uh really uh spoken to uh the war in Iran uh and because this is an information age uh young people are trying to say where are we yeah uh what are we doing uh the Supreme Court uh just handed out recently uh the decision got and voting rights and uh while we've heard individual pastors we've not heard the unified church right uh say this is where we go and how it is that we proceed.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 39:01

Yeah do you see the there's a hostility toward the black church from these organizations or just their feeling like that that we're just irrelevant or not I think irrelevant.

Speaker 3 39:15

I don't think it's hostile because they're not fighting what we're trying to do. We're not doing anything for them to fight.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 39:24

Right.

Speaker 3 39:24

Yeah I think they would welcome it uh and so different from uh the era of uh Dr. King there's not an opposing voice of Malcolm X. Different from the era of Jesse Jackson there's not a Lewis Faircon uh Lewis Faircon that era yeah uh so for this era there's not a pronounced voice that is an alternative to the black church. And so I think that we've got to figure it out as I say uh often uh when something happens in Atlanta uh the press is gonna go to TI and kill a mic before they come to me. Yeah uh because hip hop has a greater influence now than the black church does. And so we've got to figure out how how do we reinsert ourselves in the conversation. Yeah yeah has has your church always been um never when you started never I don't even know the end of your question never never no sir when I first got there Dr. Mapson I saw it in January get through February maybe March two of my deacons came to see me and say Reb uh we want to take you shopping I said you want to take me shopping I said yeah do you own any suits me say yeah do you own any suits I said I got a closet full of them say yeah but you wearing dashikis every week I say oh I'm I'm sorry I say no I I I got suits I'm I'm okay he said uh why are you preaching all of this black stuff every week now you gotta understand black stuff yeah Dr. Manson I I know you know it I'm I'm just saying it for dramatic emphasis I'm in Atlanta I'm in Atlanta Georgia the home of civil rights and they uh said that uh my predecessor preached that there was no black and white it was just kingdom I said oh no no no I I said no no no for such a time as this the kingdom is at hand uh but no it it has not been that our our church would have never in a million years been thought of to be an epicenter for liberation theology in no book from Fraser to Lincoln nobody would have ever put us in there right uh but no we we are uh we're emerging into this new space yeah yeah yeah and that's probably drawing people because of that I would say oh no absolutely I had a younger people I had a a conversation when uh George Floyd was killed they started rioting in Atlanta and I had a conversation with uh Ambassador Young Andrew Young former mayor former lieutenant of uh Dr. King and he said uh Jamal I really thought you was a smart guy I said me he said yeah he said uh you really think Atlanta's the home of civil rights I said yeah he said it's not Dr. Mapson it it changed my whole perspective my whole mindset saw stuff you know but I I hadn't heard it or registered it he said we didn't do nothing great for civil rights in Atlanta we just lived there everything that happened was Montgomery Birmingham Nashville Greensboro we just became the epicenter because that's where our headquarters was headquarters and Atlanta has been never thought about yeah I know it know it as a Morehouse mayor yeah he said that we just have inherited uh that thought uh but uh when we have operated now in a civil rights vein as a liberation theology church it is really living up to the assumption of what Atlanta is not the reality of what Atlanta is and so it

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 44:01

The city too busy to hate.

Speaker 3 44:03

Yeah, it's too busy to hate.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 44:04

They call it that.

Speaker 3 44:05

Yeah, no, no, no, no. And they're very busy. Yeah. It's very busy. And so, as a consequence, if you take uh Senator Warnock out of the conversation, you don't have any exemplars of liberation theology that you would hewn out of Atlanta. I never think about it. Yeah. You're gonna wake up in the middle of the night, roll over, and tap your wife and say, What did Jamal say? I'm telling you.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 44:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:40

Mm-mm. So we have been able to do things I learned from my dad in Baltimore, giving out shoes for back to school, feeding a community, doing a uh uh community center for black entrepreneurship, which you would think are all natural to Atlanta. Yeah. And the city is like, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's incredible. Uh so I am uh I am grateful uh to build on a legacy that was assumed.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 45:26

But you had to take there from Baltimore.

Speaker 3 45:29

Yes, I took there from Baltimore. I'm the better because of it.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 45:33

Yeah. Today's episode of the Ministry Exchange is supported by our silver partner, Palmer Theological Seminary, whose mission is the whole gospel for the whole world through whole persons. As one of the most diverse seminaries in North America, Palmer equips leaders through holistic ministry, justice-centered formation, and a global vision of the church. To learn more about their programs and mission, visit PalmerSeminary.edu and follow on social media at Palmer Seminary for more. Thank you. Where

Voting Power And A New Movement

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 46:18

do you think the uh um this whole matter of the target emphasis is going and and other initiatives that I mean this this thing it could just be transforming?

Speaker 2 46:36

Yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 46:37

Um what's the next what's the next step in terms of exerting this kind of uh political and economic power that we have as a the best thing that could ever happen for civil rights is Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 47:00

One point three million people in Georgia, not nationally, one point three million people in Georgia who were eligible to vote didn't vote in the last presidential cycle. And I think that we as a community at large slipped in the cruise control. We thought we had arrived and all was well. Uh, but to see things being stripped in real time is really gonna mobilize our efforts around voter registration. Mega Ebbett said voter education before registration, then mobilization. Um, so I think that uh you're getting ready to see if the church doesn't step up in nanoseconds, uh grassroots organizations are really gonna take the oxygen out of the room and really begin to step up because young people are looking for it and older people are bewildered that it ain't happening. To have to live through this twice is unconscionable. Uh, and so I think uh between now and the midterm elections, we got a lot of work to do, but the community is prepared to do it. Whether we're in Louisiana or Tennessee or Mississippi, Georgia, where it is that I am, and it's uh climbing uh northward, uh, is uh we've got a new civil rights movement right on our hands. Uh, but again, you got to find a voice who will echo out what is the ask, what is the demand, what is the charge. And I think uh between now and the summer, um that business as usual is really gonna be thrown out the window. Yeah, yeah.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:50

Oh,

Back To Basics For Gen Z

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 48:51

great conversation. I I um what in in in closing, um what do you want preachers to know, people to know um about the future of the church, about yourself, about uh because because what you said about preaching, it um it's it seems to me that at the center of who we are it's is is preaching, right?

Speaker 2 49:22

Yes.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 49:25

And and until we're able to to to recover that the power from preaching and without the fluff is we I don't think we're gonna go anywhere. So just you know, where do you where do you see all of this going in terms of the black church and preaching and how do we I don't say when I say get back there, I'm not suggesting we can never go back, but yeah uh there's so much power and and and our voices are still the the most important voices in the community, I think. No, as black at least for for for black church it is.

Speaker 3 50:07

Yeah, I think uh preaching is evolving. Um Dr. Gardner Taylor as prime was built for the radio age. Because I can listen to it. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Bishop Jakes was for the television age. Prior to Bishop Jakes, we weren't walking around, we were standing behind that desk, right? Standing behind that desk flavor. We ain't never seen that till it's time to come down for the altar call. Right. Uh, but now in this internet age, where the attention span is so anemic, uh, but the fastest growing demographic for young black men is Hebrew Israelites because they want to learn something. So they'll listen to a YouTube message for two and a half hours. Uh, but the world is information age, and the black church is still inspiration driven. Uh and so we've got to figure out how do we add information uh and make that information palatable uh to people who no longer listen to radio.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 51:23

Okay.

Speaker 3 51:24

Uh and figure out how it is that we diversify the portfolio. I think this is the greatest opportunity for the black church. More young people are moving back to church and moving back to ministry, uh, and they don't want fog machines. Uh, they don't want strobe lights, they want the traditional church that they know. They can get the world everywhere.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 51:46

Yeah.

Speaker 3 51:47

Uh, and so I think that we've got to go back to basics, uh, things the younger people who are watching what I'm giving say to you, you ain't never heard before. We gotta go back to stuff like Sunday school. We gotta go back to vacation Bible school. Uh we have uh changed out Bible study for midweek service. And people want a space to be able to ask questions of the Bible uh and not uh feel like the question reeks of insubordination. They really just want to know. Uh, and I think that we've got to have uh hard questions um that Gen Z is asking. Why can't they have tattoos? Why can't they have piercings? Uh if Jesus says, love everybody, what is our position on the LGBTQ?

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 52:39

Right.

Speaker 3 52:39

Uh if you're dealing with the largest demographic uh in the black church's women, uh, where are we in the ownership of their own bodies? Uh and not uh secularly, but scripturally, um, so that it doesn't uh dress itself up as sanctified misogyny. Uh but I think that we've got to have some real conversations and the community will have it. I think people need more than uh Michael road the boat ashore. Uh but when we have those real conversations, I think that that's when we'll be able to tap into an untap place.

Soundbites, Context, And Knowing Your People

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 53:20

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the age, okay, the age of the soundbite. You mentioned that before, just um how is that of negatively affected our voice and what people hear because they're here, they're not hearing context, they're hearing a soundbite.

Speaker 3 53:40

Yes, and that's yeah, you you you Dr. Mapson are uh not just a student of preaching, but a dean of preaching, and you know the danger of preaching the text without the context. So a lot of preachers are shooting themselves in the foot over a soundbite without any context to it. Um a soundbite is um what was the fuel that they used to try to uh alienate Jeremiah Wright. God damn America. Right. But they didn't deal with the whole context of the exploitation of the diaspora, of illegal wars, of uh trafficking, of the stealing of uh resources and minerals. So all of America said, wow, Obama's under a pastor that don't like America. So we had we had the soundbite without any context. And so it's it's very important for us um to not be lazy, uh, to really uh investigate. Uh the reality is uh we don't need a soundbite for Trump to shoot himself in the foot. The whole context should be enough. Uh when uh Trump ran against Hillary Clinton, nobody thought Trump was smarter than Hillary. Right. Nobody thought he had more experience, had more diplomacy. The exit poll said he was more relatable. And people forget, as much as I vehemently disagree with 99.9% of everything Donald Trump says, people forget that he went to Wharton. And they told him his demographic is uneducated white people who have a sixth to eighth grade reading level. So he never gives a sentence that's more than six words. Because that's his demographic.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 55:57

That's his demographic.

Speaker 3 55:58

Yeah, and so we we've gotta really apply sociology to our hermeneutic. To say, who am I preaching to? What is the target? What is the aim, and what it is that we're trying to raise the people to? And I think that that's uh the critical mass of our disconnect is a lot of preachers are preaching to people who are not in their pew. So it is not connecting. They are taking the sound bites of Bishop Jakes, and they never lived in the coal mines of West Virginia. Yeah, yeah. You take the sound bites of Noah Jones, but you weren't raised apostolic from Jamaica. So the context matters to where it is. The the biggest bastion of black preaching at one time was New York. Uh, whether you go from Sandy Ray, yeah, all the way around, uh, is because everybody was coming into New York.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 57:06

Yes.

Speaker 3 57:06

The epicenter of the black church, I want to give a qualifier, the epicenter of the black church, not black preaching, is Atlanta. And it's by sheer numbers.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 57:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 57:18

Uh we got 2,000 people moving there a month. Uh and so, just based off of the numbers, we got Atlanta's the only place, pastors. I'm giving you a challenge. It's the only place in the world where you can Google megachurches for sale. It's the only place in the world. Uh, and so you you got to know what is your context, how it is that you move, how it is that you function. Uh, my predecessor, uh Bishop Long, I'm dealing with sociology, not even theology. It was at the height of the Atlanta boom.

Speaker 1 57:52

Dr.

Speaker 3 57:52

Mapson, you are Baptist. I'm AME. Critical questions. These are not even theological questions, these are sociological questions. Where in the South, where in the South could you preach in a Baptist church wearing a muscle shirt and then put a robe on top of it? Yeah. Because Atlanta was not necessarily the South, it was where people moved to in the South. So it was people from Detroit, from Chicago, from Philly, uh, from Baltimore. Uh, and they were able to call back home and make their parents feel okay because I joined the Baptist church. Yeah. So there were people that didn't have roots, that didn't have any real connection and were able to uh foster and grow. There's some stuff that you could do effectively where it is that you are that won't you necessarily universally translate. Uh, and so a lot the danger of following social media is in knowing the difference. You came here from Jersey uh to Philly, is that people listening to you from Philly when you first got here was gonna ask you where you're from. Anywhere in the world you go from Baltimore, they're gonna know that accent and say, Oh no, you are not from Philadelphia. Now we an hour and a half away, right? But we are worlds apart. You going to preach for a church in DC is not the same as preaching a church in Baltimore. The culture is different, and it's 45 minutes away.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 59:41

Right.

Speaker 3 59:41

You know, it's uh how far, just in ethos, in uh mindset, in comportment, how far? You knew both of them, is Harold Carter from H Beecher Hicks. Yeah, and they 45 minutes away. Yes. Uh under the same education, right? The same level of exposure, but it's a different kind of output on how it is that they connect and how it is that it resonated differently. So Dr. Carter, originally from Alabama, was able to tap into that southern strand of Baltimore that was altogether different from H. Beecher Hicks, who was the next iteration of a Dr. Gardner Taylor. Yeah. You know, it's two different things, but both effective ministries, but 45 minutes, 45 minutes away from each other. Right.

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:00:41

That's amazing. That's amazing.

Final Thanks And Farewell

Rev. Dr. J. Wendell Mapson Jr. 1:00:44

Well, thank you so much, uh, Dr. Bryant. No, thank you, sir. For for this wonderful conversation that we have had. Honored to be with you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And uh hope that you will continue to uh support the ministry ministry exchange with Dr. Mapson by looking at our past episodes and looking forward to new ones. God bless you.

Speaker 3 1:01:08

Thank you, sir.